Forum Topics XRG XRG XRG valuation

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Tom73
Added a month ago

Amazing and professional piece of work @Zboats , you have set a very high bar and I very much appreciate you sharing your great work. Anyone interested in XRG needs to read it.

I love the critical and assumption testing approach.

Below is a brain dump as I took a first pass through the model and notes, I want to spend more time on it later in the week, but wanted to respond before I got distracted. The process of making a model is always worth more than the output, so reviewing a different approach is very valuable. No criticism only constructive comments intended:

  • Pipeline add is constant across cases, only conversion rate varies which leads to averaging as base increases inversely to conversion rate which leads to a convergence of nominal sales over time. Provided you are happy with the revenue drop out figure for each scenario it is fine, but note the outcome range doesn’t reflect a divergence that comes from compounding differences across scenarios.
  • Note I think there is a formula error in the version online (noting the figures in the word document are corrected for this) for pipeline conversion which refers to row 37 (Scenario probability) rather than row 34 (Pipeline conversion rate). Interestingly the value calculations barely moves but there is now a much more significant spread between Base and Bull.
  • I am confused on calculating sales by adding pipeline conversion to ARR, I think that is double counting. The pipeline converts into an ARR stream over 3 years (in general), it’s not a hardware sale up front then ongoing servicing/licence ARR. The company calculates ARR as the annualised value of sales from their pipeline, getting the money up front for 3 years then releasing the sales figures to the P&L over the contract term which is the ARR figure they publish. The bottom line sales forecasted look reasonable, but I don’t think the maths is consistent with how sales are recorded and reported (at least from my understanding).
  • Sales multiples are not my preferred terminal value multiplyer, I only ever use them if I can’t get to profit which usually indicates it’s a bad investment. I prefer to use profit multiples NPAT/FCF/EBITDA as these can be compared to discount rates (expected returns) and the growth rate at the terminal point is contextual to the multiple used. The results in the model is that the PE used for nominal share price is 20/32/44 for Bear/Base/Bull, which are reasonable given the growth but I wouldn’t class them as conservative.
  • Discount rate of 18% is very high, but maybe this is where the conservatism comes in to offset the above point on sales – which is a totally valid way of doing it in my view. Discount rates are personal and subjective which determining the value of something to you, but when guessing where the market might value something a rate close to 10% is what I use for ball parking a market price. Your model allows for this change in preference which is great.
  • I have a different view regarding the question around working capital and debt cliff. I don’t think there will be a raise for this issue (maybe for an acquisition or other reason) because XRG is a working capital positive company. Normally rapid growth is a drain on cash from increased working capital needs, but for XRG as sales grow working capital becomes increasingly negative because they are paid up front for 3 years of sales. The working capital risk is that they stop growing. I also think they have alternative debt options should the current facility not renew (Baxter would probably step in as a last resort).

 

Thank you again @Zboats , great work I look forward to playing around with your model some more and checking out all the references that are included – fantastic.

Disc: I own RL+SM

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Zboats
Added a month ago

Thanks @Tom73 for taking a look at it and your insights here - this is very constructive indeed.

I will mull this over and no doubt incorporate most of it and then repost later!


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Zboats
Added a month ago

Here are the updated versions.

I am genuinely not sure which way to go with SaaS multiples i.e. P/S vs P/E as a lot of SaaS business remain unprofitable for many years, so I think the industry baseline/standards might be more complete when the still unprofitable companies are also included?

The other thing I wasn't sure about was which exact discount to use - I want to be conservative to stay on the safe side, but then I don't want to sell to early as well haha so it's better to be as accurate as possible. Bit of a catch 22 scenario.

Either way I included both methods for each of the above scenarios in the next version. I think I managed to successfully incorporate all the other feedback, so it's a bit more substantial and thought-out now I think, but let me know.

Have updated by valuation to 0.3 as it seems to be a mid-point of everything (you'll see what I mean in the summary tab)

Model:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k1F2ZH_P2iLisiyJxIqU5dlJm5U3iaHn8mL0dnZy8cA/edit?gid=1009370620#gid=1009370620

Supporting doc:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gr8OKBED6RFpjsdA5QhocQoctPEwtHSkADfSd_pmLW0/edit?tab=t.0


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Bushmanpat
Added a month ago

@Zboats I try and use price to earnings where I can because ultimately you want a company that is making money. Sometimes you want to wait until a company is actually standing on its own two feet before investing. Yes, if you wait to invest until after they've passed the inflection point into free cash flow, you'll miss that initial jump, but there should still be plenty of money to make it the company continues to grow from there. And you'll have picked the 1 in 10 that is no longer in the perpetual capital raising cycle. As Howard Marks says, it's less about picking the winners and more about avoiding the losers.

If the company isn't earning, then use price to sales, but this is then reflected in the discount rate. Higher risk, higher discount rate.

I'm pretty bullish on XRG myself. They seem like they're really starting to get some momentum.

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Tom73
Added a month ago

Good discussion on using P/S vs P/E for assessing value @Zboats & @Bushmanpat, I think both have their place depending on the type of investment and the type of investor as well as the year at which you determine that value.

The current P/E is reasonable for companies that are well into profitability and you expect to have relatively stable growth rates over the coming 3-5 years. The P/E in this case is a reasonable surrogate for a DCF result which embed discount rate and growth rates to current earnings. So for the types of companies @Bushmanpat likes, ie ones that have proven profitability and are more stable, the current P/E is a useful data point for a view on value.

Unprofitable (pre-profit) companies are often looked at from a P/S comparative point of view, taking into account sales growth rate expectations and gross margins for comparative value assessment. This suits high growth investors and situations where profit comparatives are useless, such as how @Zboats has employed. Current or forecasted P/S can be used effectively, the caveat I would flag is that once a company becomes profitable, investors start focusing on earnings based measures, so if you are forecasting out to a point the company is profitable and then valuing based on P/S it may not align to how the market views it.

I have bumbled around with value metrics and methods for about a decade now (still bumbling away) and the key learning I have had is that no one metric or approach is ever appropriate in all instances. I have also moved to favouring’s investments where companies are transitioning from loss to profit, noting that the market does a terrible job of valuing them and in small cap’s the number of eyes on them is less so finding large miss pricings is more likely.

My preferred metric/methods for valuation of these types of companies is either a DCF and/or a forecasted NPAT and P/E, 3-5 years away then discounted to today. So I am only looking at companies I expect to be solidly profitable in 3-5 years (allowing the use of P/E, and focusing on quality) and I am thinking about what the market may value them at that time rather than what I personally value them at. So I use a 10% discount rate or higher if I want additional margin of safety or to address greater uncertainty.

This is very much like @Strawman approach of spit balling future sales, NPAT% and P/E, then discounting. I tend to go into a bit more details by fleshing out the P&L forecast and doing an DCF in tandem (which helps in understanding the company economics), but fundamentally it’s the same logic. I want a ballpark value that the company may be worth in the future if a basic set of assumptions play out. Provided the assumptions are modest and value calculated is well above todays price then I probably have a good investment.

If the downside is limited/unlikely and upside extremely large then it’s an asymmetric bet. I just have to understand my key assumptions for success, test and monitor them as new information becomes available. This desired outcome is compatible with companies that are suited to P/S valuations where profitability is a lot further out, but I find this requires more foresight than I am capable of most of the time. Also it’s applicable to companies suited to current P/E for valuation, but I find that it is rare that an extremely large upside opportunity is missed on these companies, so it’s a less fruitful hunting ground.

So, horses for courses, I look forward to having a look at your update work @Zboats but probably won’t be until the weekend.

Cheers.

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