Forum Topics The value of boring
Solvetheriddle
Added 2 months ago

I look at this issue a different way. not boring or exciting, but predictable or unpredictable. i am heavily skewed towards predictability. is that boring or not? i don't care, it doesn't bother me. i have to have a certain degree of certainty over my assumptions. some may point out that i am afraid of volatility, that is true if you mean business volatility, if i have little idea what's going on or likely to, then yes, i don't prefer it, in terms of SP volatility, if blended with business stability, then bring it on, that's an opportunity. That's my wheelhouse, or what i think it is. Predictability and volatility are different, imo. of course, they may correlate.

of course, we all have different ideas of what is certain. it appears I have a higher bar than others on this criterion, but that's my style, I can have conviction in.

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Goldfish
Added 2 months ago

Interesting perspective @Solvetheriddle

I read your "Lessons from 40 years" and found it very useful. Your record is great. I am not that good (yet)

I like the phrase "SP volatility, if blended with business stability, then bring it on, that's an opportunity". This is actually not dissimilar to what I am trying to do with what I call "boring" companies, although we describe it in different ways. I am looking for opportunities where there has been share price volatility (on the downside) that is overdone vs the underlying stability of the company. I would argue that all 4 companies I originally listed exhibit this.

Volatility is easy to spot. Perhaps the real skill lies in distinguishing when it is warranted vs when it is not

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ArrowTrades
Added 2 months ago

Manage the risk then embrace the uncertainty is a lens I like to use.

If you know what you own and why, then as you say volatility provides opportunity.


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Goldfish
Added 2 months ago

Some good comments - thank you

@Chagsy I take your point re Amcor's debt. Yes it is a risk. However the cheap share price IMO compensates for that. The recent merger is also a risk. But I can see how, in an industry like packaging, being the biggest could generate synergies, lower costs and pricing power. Somewhat like what Ansell has done with gloves - another boring company that has done quite well over the long term. If Amcor can meet or get close to meeting guidance, they can afford the dividend plus some debt reduction. Some non-core asset sales are also likely and would certainly help. I believe that the odds are in our favour at the current share price.

@Lewis Solpatts is another boring company that has done very well for a long time. Great management too. It's just not very cheap at the moment. But I reckon having 40% in Berkshire, Solpatts and ETFs is probably going to go allright for you over the long term.

This discussion has been useful in terms of crystallising my own thoughts. I think what I have realised is that, even if you are mainly a small cap investor, it is worth keeping an eye on some "boring" large caps. Every so often, certain companies and/or sectors get out of favour with the market. If you look carefully and make sure that the fundamentals are still ok, I'm convinced that there are some great opportunities. OK, they're not going to 10-bag, but you can still do very well out of stacking up smaller "wins" at lower risk.


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tomsmithidg
Added 2 months ago

@Goldfish , I've got a decent position in NHC and am accumulating a speccy position in CSL. My only comment is don't disregard banks (I have done and continue to do well out of them) and take another look at WDS too. I really think it is undervalued, and is going to do well in the medium to long term.

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Goldfish
Added 2 months ago

Having a week off atm. Some valuable time to sit and think, for a change.

One thing I've been contemplating is where the value is in the current market. I see 2 main areas.

The first is small caps, There is definitely IMO greater inefficiency in smaller, less scrutinised stocks. This forum is great for uncovering misunderstood, undervalued gems that the market has yet to recognise. Examples would include: AIM, RTH, AVR, CAT. But that stuff is all well covered on here already, and so not what I want to talk about today.

What I thought might be worthwhile is to talk about the second main area that I can see value. Boring stocks. What I'm referring to is unexciting, large cap, value stocks. Not banks (which are crazily priced, for reasons I don't fully underatand) and not anything to do with AI (too overhyped). My top 4 examples are:

  1. CSL. This is still a really high quality company. Yes there have been some problems with vaccines and with the Vifor acquisition, but the core plasma business is still very high quality with years of moderate growth ahead. CSL has grown revenue, profits and dividends every year, yet has de-rated from a PE multiple in the 40s to a forward PE in the high teens.
  2. Sonic. Healthcare seems to be heavily out of favour. Sonic is a somewhat boring pathology provider. Now that the covid-testing hype has cleared, the market seems to be under-rating its long-term tail winds and growth prospects. Wealthy, aging populations will demand a ever-increasing number of tests and scans in the future. This has decades to run. Sonic is well run, geographically diversified, and on an un-demanding forward PE of under 20, while paying a dividend of over 4%.
  3. Amcor. I have posted about this recently. Global packaging company on a PE of less than 11, paying a dividend of over 6%. Risks around integrating the recent acquisition as well as debt, but plenty of reasons for optimism
  4. NHC. Coal miners are not going anywhere anytime soon. Especially if the data-centre boom continues. NHC produces high-quality coal very efficiently. It has quality management. It trades on a PE of around 8 and pays a dividend of 8.5%. That's with coal prices that may well be at cyclical lows.


I own significant amounts of the above 4 stocks. Some others that I am watching, but haven't quite pulled the trigger on include:

WOW. Yes it's a bit beaten down and cheaper than it has been. But not quite cheap enough for me yet

EVT. Unusual conglomerate with a market cap less than the value of its property portfolio. Again, I might get tempted if it gets a bit cheaper

So my portfolio atm is a somewhat unusual mix of Strawman-style small caps and boring, unappreciated large caps as listed above.

Any comments, suggestions or criticisms would be very welcome.


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Chagsy
Added 2 months ago

@Goldfish

Nice post, mostly because it aligns with my biases ;) I hold 1 and 4 and am researching 2.

I see the debt that AMC is carrying as a significant risk: therefore am a bit scared but otherwise a solid company. The debt thing has the potential to spiral if they don't manage to divest some assets: net debt/EBITDA stands at 3.5* (in June and may be higher now) and ratings by S&P and Moody's stand at BBB and Baa2. Earnings are expected to decrease in the consumer discretionary segment next FY and they have to maintain a yearly increase in dividends to remain in the Dividend Aristocrat category, so they could be making a cross for their own back. Should debt increase significantly, due to any cause, a rating downgrade would make their debt burden even harder to carry, potentially triggering a cap raise, or witholding the dividend/failing to increase it with a subsequent re-rating in the share price, as it gets dropped from the dividend aristocrat index.

I think what you have created used to be called a barbell equity portfolio, I'm not sure if that's a term that's still used. It's very similar to my approach: ~80% in pretty stable quality compounders and ~20% in small caps that have a chance of hitting the big time. This percentage is not fixed and often flexes by 10% in either direction depending on returns and the macro environment. Having the 20% to play with is also a way to stop me fiddling with the core holdings: the biggest enemy of good returns is to over-trade, and I have been guilty of that in the past. I need to remember if you're paying tax on the capital gains of a company you sell, the new investment has to outperform what you have just sold by 18% (from memory), which is quite a hurdle. And then add in trading fees, which admittedly aren't much of a concern nowadays.

  • there are many ways to calculate this, other figures I've come across state it to be 5.6. The direction matters more than how it is calculated.

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Lewis
Added 2 months ago

+1 for boring stocks/portfolios. It'd be fun to find the most boring portfolio on strawman, they'd probably do quite well over a long enough time period.

Solpatts, Berkshire and VAS(asx300) make up about 40% of my portfolio. I'll probably never own a super yacht, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but a few decades of compounding and the above three should do ok.

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Chagsy
Added 2 months ago

@Lewis

if I might make one comment, I would suggest instead of VAS, which is overweight banks and miners, an equal weighted ETF such as MVW.

the MER is a bit higher at 0.35%. But I believe the risk is lower in the event of two scenarios:

1) RIO and BHP suffering when Semandou opens

2) a property correction (yeah, I know)

best of luck

C

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Lewis
Added 2 months ago

Yeah, it's a valid concern @Chagsy. VAS was 100% of the portfolio when I first started. Originally the plan was to dollar cost average into "the market" and call it a day. It's come down in percentage terms as I've grown confidence picking individual business and looked to diversify. I think if you're passively buying into a market you're likely to be overweight, in Aus it's banks and miners, in the US at the moment it's tech/ai. I don't know for sure but I think I've read that it's historically normal for a hand full of stocks to drive a whole market. If you're passive that's the game you play and when the giants fall you wait for something else to take it's place and pick up the average along the way.

I'm one foot in both camps.

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Clio
Added 2 months ago

@Goldfish and others - +1 re boring portfolios, or segments of portfolios. My SMSF portfolio is approximately 95% very boring, as one might expect given it’s in pension phase and I need those dividends to prevent the capital being drawn down. And yes, the banks are in there, and so far, the allocation to mostly boring is working in that the portfolio reliably generates enough cash to support the mandatory drawdown (5%) while still putting on at least another 5% in growth.

In contrast, my Company portfolio is purely growth, but even there, I would consider it 70% boring (index ETFs, other ETFs, gold, Btc, private credit, etc). [Yes, I consider Btc boring! The investment is just there and sitting - not something I need to bother with.] Currently 29% of this portfolio is invested in the Aus-SMID space - that’s the not-boring bit.

Especially over the past year, the boring segments of the portfolio have truly acted as ballast when the market sea has got choppy and the not-boring segment is leaping about in value. Up one day, down the next, but the ballast strongly underpins the overall portfolio value. This means I maintain the confidence to just sit still and let the stormy period play out.

One point on Sonic Health - I held it for 8 years and sold out about 18 months ago (for about 25% capital gain, not counting dividends). Today at $23.19, it’s more than minus 10% from the price at which I sold (18 months ago). The reason I sold was that, while I agree that in the future, wealthy, aging populations will need an ever-increasing number of tests and scans, what I am far less clear on is whether SHL can maintain their margins in the face of European and Australian and other governments being under pressure with their healthcare costs and limiting increases on pathology rebates/subsidies. I can see a situation where the increasing costs of tests (borne by SHL) combines with government price limitations to squeeze SHL's margins to an uncomfortable degree.

Whether that actually occurs or not, who can foresee, but I suspect thoughts and uncertainty along those lines is what’s keeping SHL’s price depressed.

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Remorhaz
Added 2 months ago

You also don't have to choose one or the other (VAS/A200 OR MVW) - you can have a blend of the two - e.g. do a 70:30 split so you're still mostly index market cap weighted with a tilt towards equal weight for some diversity against the banks and miners, or whatever proportion you want

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