Forum Topics Lessons from CSL
Goldfish
Added 4 weeks ago

Thinking about what I can learn from CSL, in light of recent events.

Briefly, I first bought a medium-sized parcel in 2014 for around $76. I have held those ever since, although I have bought and sold moderate amounts in various different accounts at different times.

Looking back over the whole timeframe, I think my big mistake was not selling out when the price got clearly beyond the fundamentals. The reason that I am particularly annoyed with myself is that I more or less knew it. I can remember looking at CSL in late 2019, after the share price had run hard. It was on a PE of something like 50. I didn't know exactly how things were going to play out, but I clearly knew that the price was expensive and implied ongoing high growth rates well into the future. I also knew that CSL was getting very large and that at some stage the exponential growth from extracting substances from plasma would moderate, as the company matured.

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So why didn't I act? A number of reasons. Firstly, cognitive bias. I had a psychological attachment to the stock, because it had made me a lot of money. Secondly, tax implications: there would have obviously been a considerable CGT to pay. Thirdly (probably the biggest factor), I allowed myself to be influenced by a lot of stuff I was reading in the financial press and online. Warren Buffett "Our favourite holding period is forever". Any number of people urging "Never sell quality compounders".

Intelligent Investor (which I generally respect and have been subscribed to for many years) published a "Never sell" article in October 2019. Ironically right at the time I should have been selling CSL (and several of the other companies on the list):

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I don't have the time to run the figures, but I'm pretty certain that list would have underperformed the market fairly dramatically.

So what have I learnt?

I think all of us like to make life simple. We all look for rules and patterns that we can apply, based on what we have observed previously. This is the underlying error.

Back in 2019, Quality compounders had experienced a long period of outperformance. People naturally tried to turn this into a simple rule. "All you have to do is buy and hold the right quality companies that can compound earnings". Sounds very attractive, doesn't it. I bought into it.

The sharemarket is a place of almost infinite complexity. Trying to make simple rules is almost never going to work. Definitely not in the long term

The harsh reality is that every single thing that we own needs to be continuously re-evaluated on a regular basis. When we have reasonable certainty that valuation is not aligned with value, we should act.

There is no "Never Sell" list. There are no shortcuts or free lunches.

That is what I have learnt from CSL

[At the cost of the value of my shares halving since I should have sold in 2019, plus over 6 years of opportunity cost]


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edgescape
Added 4 weeks ago

The first thing that caught my eye was Wesfarmers.

We were told to avoid wes even at $65.

I'm happy for them to get one right.

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Rick
Added 4 weeks ago

Totally agree @Goldfish. I also heard the Intelligent Investor discussion re never sell stocks. I believe CBA was mentioned also. Although CBA surprised to the upside yesterday and jumped 7%, it was most likely already overvalued. I still hold it but reduced significantly near the highs. I will be updating my valuation soon and watching the share price momentum.

In my mind there are two things to watch when a the share price starts to look expensive, your valuation based on likely future performance (number 1) and the chart. I start selling slowly when the share price exceeds my valuation. If the share price momentum is strong, I sell very slowly until the holding is a size I feel comfortable with for a good business which looks expensive. There is risk built into this scenario.

So for me it comes down to valuation and momentum. There is no such thing as a “Never Sell Stock” in my view.

On the buy side I work similarly but in reverse. I add very, very slowly below valuation if the momentum is negative (falling knife). There’s most likely more pain to come for the share price. As the share price starts to bottom out I add more. I probably should be waiting for a little kick up in the share price before significantly adding more based on my experience to date.

I used to ignore technicals but the phenomenon is real, has enormous influence on share price in either direction, way beyond any sensible valuations. I don’t think you can ignore the charts, and it is unhelpful hearing people talking about “Never Sell Stocks”. History tells us this is absolute nonsense.

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Solvetheriddle
Added 4 weeks ago

@Goldfish i think i covered a lot of this with my talk with AP a few weeks ago, but from what you say (non exhaustive)

  1. accountability, own your own decision, opinions are second-order confirmations
  2. Information inflow, be careful who and what you pay attention to
  3. if you are an active investor, stay active
  4. Even great businesses become overvalued, my core holdings i have an idea what the intrinsic value range is, and do trade when it overshoots a lot at the extremes


Does it always work no.

Having said that, CSL has been particularly tricky. for a number of reasons, i was quite sceptical and sold down a lot a couple of years ago, due to the unusual acquisition, C suite changes, CSL112 failure and second order imapcts, blind belief by punters, but bought back in on the supposed strength of the core franchise, after the fall. now that's in trouble. so all the 50/50 calls have been crap. but as you point out, it was trading at unsustainable multiples, as almost all stocks do, PME's latest example.

ps as an aside, there has been this annoying guy on Seeking Alpha who kept posting how well Grifols was doing, i went out of my way to tell him how wrong he was, well it turns out.......

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Scoonie
Added 4 weeks ago

I have CSL bought well above the current price and like most am caught up on the CSL stock crash as well as the AI induced tech stock pummeling.  

  Goldfish it is interesting your showing the Intelligent Investor: “The Never Sell List” of 2019. And as you point out, you could be pretty sure this recommended list has underperformed over subsequent years.

The intelligent Investor in their never sell list was in many ways just repeating a prevailing view expressed by Buffett and many others at the time.

This is how humans behave and this also how AI behaves.  In many ways what we like to call human intelligence just amounts taking in (copying) what those around us say, even if we like to call it thinking and reasoning.  Though I could be wrong.

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