Forum Topics Hydrogen: the ASX stocks
Chalky1610
2 weeks ago

According to district Chamber of Commerce and industry president Tony Simpson believes hydrogen had the potential to be bigger than LNG. The move towards green hydrogen has already commenced with significant financial both government and private industry the race is now on Green hydrogen electrolysers to be built in regional Australia with government backing. I won't prattle on but provide the link below for anybody interested in what seems to be the new green deal. In terms of investing and simply stated the early bird catches the worm. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-05/-100-million-in-federal-grants-for-green-hydrogen/100117192

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Carbonite
2 weeks ago

These are great small steps forward. On the investment front, Engie (one of the plant builders) is a French multinational which you may know was the owner of the Hazelwood coal plant before they closed it down. Engie is rapidly exiting its coal powered stations.The hydrogen economy at present doesn't leave a lot of room for small retail investors to get in. There is no hydrogen equivalent of IFN or NEW that I can find. I personally believe the existing energy generators and LNG producers are the ones who are going to move into this space.Also the projects are very large scale use, so the problems with "smaller" applications of hydrogen remain. I notice there is a bit of greenwashing of late with a new generation plant north of Sydney to be "Hydrogen ready" but that is pretty much all gas plants - they can easily use a blend of natural gas and hydrogen. I am also concered that Hydrogen may not be the best solution for some aspects of electricity supply but they will get approved because they are currently on trend.

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Stuey727
3 weeks ago

Does anyone know the maximum energy potential of hydrogen per kilogram? Does anyone know how that compares to other stores of Chemical energy?  

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Chalky1610
3 weeks ago

In electrical terms, the energy density of hydrogen is equal to 33.6 kWh of usable energyper kg, versus diesel which only holds about 12–14 kWh per kg. What this really means is that 1 kg of hydrogen, used in a fuel cell to power an electric motor, contains approximately the same energy as a gallon of diesel.

https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/hyd_economy_bossel_eliasson.pdf

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Stuey727
3 weeks ago

Fantastic thanks. What I'm reading online is telling me that Li-ion batteries get up to like 265ish wh/kg, so that's substantially smaller. I guess why I'm wondering this is that the energy density of hydrogen is capped - I'm assuming it would be for other battery types, but I'm not as sure what that cap is, or if there's other battery types that would be higher. 

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Rapstar
3 weeks ago

I believe you are asking the wrong question.  You should be asking what is the maximum energy potential of hydrogen per unit volume?  Hydrogen cannot be practically stored in liquid form (it needs cryogenic temperatures), and will typically be stored as a gas in vehicles (or in a solution).  

Energy density per unit volume for hydrogen gas:  8 MJ/litre

Energy density per unit volume for petrol:  32 MJ/litre

The storage density can be increased by storing the hydrogen in metals or solutions, but increasing the volumetric energy density is the key issue.

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Carbonite
3 weeks ago

Hydrogen is extremely complicated to handle. For example it can get through small porous gaps that would trap other gases (or liquids). It is also one of the most explosive flammable gases. It's not pyrophoric (flammable on contact with air) but it only needs an LOC value of 5%. This is the minimum oxygen concentration (5%) in nitrogen for it to burn. Typical hydrocarbons need 2-3 times that amount. Hydrogen burns with a near invisible flame too. That presents big handling issues: a small leak can be catastrophic.

As a potential fuel source it has been around for many decades and while the gas itself is the lightest of all gases (25 litres weighs just 2 grams compared to methane: 16g and propane: 44g) its big issue is the weight of the mechanism used to safely store it. Compressing it is hazardous and you can imagine the consequence of a leak in a car accident with such a low requirement for oxygen and an invisible flame. To liquidify it, you need -252C at standard pressure. That would require huge energy and even more complex techniques to keep it at that temperature.

For these reasons it is often stored in some more exotic states: clathrates (basically locked in a cage), weakly bound to other substances or compressed in heavy cyclinders

So the short answer is that its energy density is largely irrelevant as it depends on the storage technique - and this is the most significant issue with it. I seriously doubt the common use of hydrogen. It could be done on a large industrial scale where you build a storage facility near a solar array and use it as stored energy when the sun isn't shining. But it would have to be remote. For interest: hydrogen in compressed form is painted red. Outisde of labs, I seriously doubt you will see a cylinder of it anywhere.

As a side note: ScoMo mentioned it as if it is something new. It's not, it's an old idea with many unsolved issues as a fuel. It sounds green because it doesn't have carbon in it, but ultimately there are better ways.

 

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CryWolf
3 weeks ago

To every problem there is a solution, someone once said...

@Carbonite

You seem to know more about this than I do. Would you mind looking into this press release from 4 days ago? 

"Umicore and Anglo American, through its PGMs business Anglo American Platinum, announce a research and development collaboration agreement to develop PGM-based catalysts for liquid organic hydrogen carrier (LOHC) applications on fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) and other mobile applications. This catalyst technology has the potential to transform the way hydrogen can be stored and used to power FCEVs. 

Today, compressed hydrogen is used to power FCEVs. Insufficient infrastructure and refuelling networks for compressed hydrogen, however, represent one of the main barriers for a more widespread use of hydrogen in the transportation industry. LOHC technologies provide an effective alternative solution by chemically bonding hydrogen to a stable organic liquid carrier, thereby eliminating the need for compression and making it safer, more practical and more cost efficient to transport hydrogen using existing conventional fuel networks.  

The joint research and development program targets new PGM-based catalyst technologies for LOHC, that can be installed directly on FCEVs and other mobile applications. This will help to further simplify the fuelling process: the LOHC containing hydrogen can be unloaded directly on the FCEV and the dehydrogenation phase will be carried out onboard the vehicle. The new catalyst technologies will allow to carry out this dehydrogenation step at lower temperatures and pressures, which is required for mobile applications, thereby providing a simpler and cheaper alternative to onboard storage of compressed hydrogen.  

Benny Oeyen, Anglo American’s Executive Head of PGM Market Development, said: “There is growing enthusiasm for the role that hydrogen can play in tackling global energy challenges. In order to unlock its full renewable energy potential, however, we need to solve the existing transport, logistics and infrastructure challenges. LOHC technology provides a versatile and attractive solution both for the short and long term future, and PGMs have an important role to play in streamlining logistics, offering a better user experience and reducing cost across the entire value chain.” 

Lothar Mussmann, Senior Vice President New Business Incubation at Umicore said: “We are a leading supplier of catalysts for Proton Exchange Membrane fuel cell electric vehicles. Allowing the use of hydrogen loaded LOHC in mobile fuel cell applications by using advanced LOHC dehydrogenation catalyst technology will help to overcome existing challenges of hydrogen infrastructure and logistics and thereby foster the wider introduction of fuel cell electric vehicles.” 

Umicore will conduct the research with support from Anglo American’s PGM market development program and in cooperation with Prof. Peter Wasserscheid at the University of Erlangen, co-founder of the company Hydrogenious LOHC Technologies, which is a portfolio company of AP Ventures."

A link to the transcript of the conference call about this announcement:

https://www.umicore.com/files/secure-documents/779adfa3-465e-494e-b113-ecb214ba54e8.pdf

 

 

 

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Carbonite
3 weeks ago

@CryWolf

LOHC tech has also been around for a long time. It was one of the storage technolgies I was refering to (but didn't mention) in my post. It works with large industrial scale uses but scaling it down is extremely tricky as it is essentially a chemical reaction requring high heat and pressure. Solving the waste hydrocarbon issue is a major problem. Currently cars work as fuel+oygen = waste gas. This LOHC system requires a complicated system of a hydorcarbon to chemically react with hydrogen to make the "fuel". Then another step to release it. When the hydrogen is consumed, that hydrocarbon also typically needs to be recovered instead of sent out as exhaust as in a typical combustion engine. The liquids they use are quite toxic too. So it is useful for safe large scale transport of hydrogen. But not so good scaled down.

To give you an idea of the complexity, see the photo of LOHC from Hyundai.

In the info you provided they are talking about R&D spending which suggests it is decades away for smaller scale/common use.

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Stuey727
3 weeks ago

I was listening to a podcast the other day that was talking about some potential solutions - they can apparently combine it with... nitrogen or something? To make it a lot more stable to transport - I think the CSIRO has also created some kind of permeable metal sheet to split the hydrogen back out - can't remember where it was, maybe equity mates, rask, or Australian Investors' podcast. You may be correct on the per volume thing - though I do think the weight is also related - for example if you are considering cars or transporting the fuel across oceans, the weight matters very significantly as well as the volume. That energy per kg though is massive. 2.5x the amount of diesel lol. 

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CryWolf
2 weeks ago

@Carbonite

Thanks for your reply! It was very helpfull. I did a little googling on a few things you mentioned, and found something that looks suspiciously like a trail of breadcrumbs that could be worth following. Might just be a figment of my imagination, but i still believe in fairy tales, so I might as well check it out and see if it leads me anywhere. Ordered myself a deerstalker on Amazon, and will report back later. If I don't get eaten by the witch, of course...

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Chalky1610
3 weeks ago

Trojan H2 Logistics leads the hydrogen transport revolution

Trojan H2 Logistics is striking deals that place it at the forefront of the lucrative hydrogen transport market.

PwC estimates the total domestic infrastructure investment required to store, transport and distribute hydrogen to take full advantage of Australia’s opportunity to become the dominant East Asian exporter could be up to $80 billion by 2030.

And Trojan is already streets ahead of the competition, carving out its position as Australia’s very first molecular storage, haulage and distribution company.

With the acceleration in the establishment of hydrogen hubs around the country comes the need for a secure, reliable and affordable logistics solution to transport hydrogen.

To help meet this growing as-yet unmet need, Trojan has executed two separate deals with major industry suppliers.

Trojan has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with suppliers for the delivery of 100 LH2 Fuel Stations, as well as a $US2.8m ($3.6m) agreement to immediately acquire 2 ADR-approved liquid hydrogen trailers capable of holding around 55,000 litres, or nearly 4 tonnes.

This is expected to be the start of a planned 1,000 strong fleet of H2trucks to be rolled out Australia-wide.

Meanwhile, Trojan has also signed an MoU with a second industry leading supplier for the supply of 50 hydrogen prime movers.

The company has every intention of buying another 1,000 trucks if demand continues to remain strong.

This supplier is currently producing heavy trucks capable of loading 50 tonnes at a time. The industry leading hydrogen fuel cells powering the vehicles allow for a 600-800km driving range per refuelling.

All signs point to strong demand

PwC says the global hydrogen market is expected to “boom” between 2030 and 2050.

In Australia, the largest end uses for hydrogen will be as a blended gas and as a transport fuel, but there are many other investment opportunities across numerous sectors, according to PwC.

In particular, Japan and South Korea represent a multi-billion-dollar opportunity for the Australian export industry over the longer term thanks to their ambitious hydrogen targets.

By PwC’s figures, global demand for hydrogen currently amounts to about 70 million tonnes, primarily for use in oil refining and ammonia production for fertilisers. The hydrogen market is currently worth about $US135 billion.

That global demand is forecast to increase to 100 million tonnes by 2030 and surpass 500 million tonnes by 2050.

But right now, global hydrogen production is largely derived from fossil fuels (natural gas or coal), a process which creates large amounts of CO2 emissions and is tagged ‘grey’ hydrogen.

But governments around the globe have set their sights on ‘green’ hydrogen as a key contender in the clean energy mix as they strive to hit their zero emissions targets.

Green hydrogen is produced from renewable energy sources via the electrolysis of water and is completely carbon free, or from other renewable sources like biomass.

Goldman Sachs previously estimated that green hydrogen could supply up to 25 per cent of the world’s energy needs by 2050, making it a $US10 trillion market globally.

But green hydrogen requires transport infrastructure that provides stability, minimises losses, is efficient and affordable.

For domestic transport, hydrogen is expected to be transported by pipelines – either newly built or modified existing pipelines – or via storage and transport of hydrogen in the form of gas, liquid or fuel cells.

https://stockhead.com.au/energy/trojan-h2-logistics-leads-the-hydrogen-transport-revolution/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Lunchtime -04-26-2021&utm_content=httpsstockheadcomauenergytrojanh2logisticsleadsthehydrogentransportrevolution&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Afternoon ASX Small Cap Wrap Tuesday April 27&utm_content=Afternoon ASX Small Cap Wrap Tuesday April 27+CID_7d9e6b43f437a5457b50c87f3eb3b9b2&utm_source=Campaign Monitor&utm_term=Trojan H2 Logistics leads the hydrogen transport revolution 

 

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SlickRick
3 weeks ago

The Boss speaks

https://youtu.be/A0uWPJu4jCU

 

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