Forum Topics Roe V Wade and the Economy
Strawman
2 years ago

@Nnyck777 @Alpha18 @suttree

Yeah, this is a tough one...

While it's appropriate to have certain limitations on content (eg offensive material/language etc), it's a very slippery slope once we start mandating what members can and can't post.

At this stage, I'm thinking of implementing a 'mute' button -- one that would hide content in the newsfeed from either a certain user or from a certain forum thread. That way, if anyone sees something they think is a waste of time, they can just hit 'mute' and that will be that. (We actually discussed this a while ago, but it fell by the wayside). It will give members greater control of the content they see, while not having to impose guidelines that need to be actively moderated.

What do you think?

(fwiw, at risk of wading onto the debate, i think what happened in the US is outrageous)


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CanadianAussie
2 years ago

I like the idea of a mute button.

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Alpha18
2 years ago

Like the mute button idea too.

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TycoonTerry
2 years ago

Love the idea of a mute button, I come to the strawman page for the generally pretty positive beat of it, despite the recent turndown. All of my other news feeds currently are negative negative negative with an overtone of The Handmaids Tale. Not to say we shouldn't talk about it, we should. But the option to opt out of that content within strawman would be great

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nerdag
2 years ago

I'm no libertarian, but I am going to respectfully disagree on the 'mute' button option.

A 'mute' button goes against the ethos of Strawman, where it is often said that a successful bull must know the bear case better than the bears. Conversely, a successful bear must know the bull case better than the bulls.

A 'mute' option effectively gives the option of making this forum another echo chamber, although by choice rather than an algorithm.

This is not a statement about my view re the sentiments of the original post by @Nnyck777 in any way.

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actionman
2 years ago

I'm not in a huge need of a mute button because most content posted is either relevant or not overwhelming. Are there any other new features you could prioritize instead? :-)

On the subject of political discussions, I don't mind a few as long as they are respectful (which I think they are). I think at a high level politics is a relevant part of the stock market. In this case the Roe vs Wade changes and recent US gun law amendments posted here has opened my eyes further to the fact that the US is struggling with their constitution and the state of their democracy which I agree that is concerning for the stock market and our place in the world.

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Alpha18
2 years ago

Don’t see the downside of a mute button the more I think about it. I get that it’s not a feature everyone will find valuable but it’s not a compulsory one either. People who find it valuable can use it and people who don’t, don’t have to.

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Hackofalltrades
2 years ago

Complicated.


This particular issue is one where I think people on both sides have a very difficult time separating out their emotions from rational thought. Most discussions I've seen completely talk past each other. Pro-life people only talk about how the Foetus is a child, while pro-choice people often shoot past that question and focus on the immense social problems to do with unplanned pregnancy. From there it tends to jump straight to accusing each other based on motivations. I don't think that 90% of those on each side could articulate the others argument well (or perhaps at least, choose to articulate it well).

Nnyck is, however, very right in that this decision does have investing implications.

While conservatives would view the courts as having been highly politicised for a long time, I think it's now very clear to everyone and the effects of that are being very clearly felt.

The investing risk is in the instability. In 2020 there was no serious opposition to Biden's win because the institutions were accepted as legitimate. Mike Pence shot Trump down when he suggested opposing the democratic decision. The reaction to the decision, some of which seems to be attacking the legitimacy of the court, highlights that the faith in institutions in America is at incredibly low points. When people feel they have more to lose than gain from supporting institutions than, it creates serious risk of the country falling into disorder.

I don't think America is at the point of a secession or civil war yet, but I think it's a possibility within 20 years.

I'm so glad we don't have politicised courts in Australia. The separation of power is so important as it creates trust in institutions. Parliaments should make laws and lawyers interpret those made.

In terms of moderating, urgh, idk. A mute button feels like an easy solution that will likely avoid an echo chamber.

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Nnyck777
2 years ago

Roe V Wade

@ Strawman I have seen some members being lambasted for raising political topics on the forum. I can tell you right now that feels cowardly. Sometimes you need to rise up and raise your voice when true injustice is happening in the world. If not- who are you? Where is your integrity. Hence, I am going to state this as a human and a women and as an investor. What is happening in America right now is not ok. 

If you are the kind of person to think, who cares, be quiet….. I and no one can reach you. 

For those that are listening, what is happening in the US matters. As a human it matters, as a women it matters and as an investor it matters. I have a lot of my investments based in US or AUS companies that are trying to make headway in the US. Honestly, after today’s  ruling in the Supreme Court, I am worried. 

We are witnessing strange and uncertain times globally, environmentally and socially. Ray Dalio ascribes that great movements roll in cycles and I agree in part. It is hard though when you are the people bobbing in the sea and the waves of that cycle are crashing around you to have an omnipotent view. 

I am worried. A US President who lost the popular vote stacked the Supreme Court and this is the aftermath. The US won’t let States decide on conceal carry weapon laws and mandate it as a 2nd amendment right ( the US constitution was written in 1787 when leeches were common in medicine and hand washing hadn’t been invented (that was 1847)).   So right now in the US you have the right to carry a concealed weapon and this is protected federally. But a women does not have the right to choose what happens to her own body. Extreme right wing America is in charge. Due to the way the US judicial system is currently constructed, 9 people just showed they have the power to determine the bodily rights of $165 million of their citizens. 

Why does this matter? Well the problem is about human rights and the message that this sends to people in positions of power all over the world. The fact the federal bastion of western democracy just left human rights decision in the hands of the US states is beyond horrifying. We are seeing the decline of the US empire and if this is what their judicial system can offer, I am not so sure that this is a bad thing.  Women and male allies need to unite globally and ensure this isn’t the signal for a global rug pull for women’s rights.

Religion and Law and Government must remain separate. 

There will be unrest.

At the very least even if the moral arguments of individual rights don’t sway you then the reality of a major disruption to 50% of the workforce should. This will not be a small event, economically or socially. This is the canary screaming. 

This should matter to you as an investor? ESG! Companies such as Amazon present themselves as a company that champions women. The company has announced that it will “pay up to $4000 in travel expenses annually for non-life threatening medical treatments including abortions.” So companies are pledging support to their staff in states such as Arizona and Texas. 

Today’s article (https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/24/tech/companies-abortion-reaction/index.html) hales the significance of this landmark decision for US companies: 

“In response, corporations, some with headquarters or offices in Republican-controlled states, are taking action. Companies such as Citigroup (C), Salesforce(CRM) and Match Group (MTCH) first promised financial support to employees seeking abortions in affected states after a draft version of the opinion leaked in May. Many more followed suit on Friday. Some, including Bumble and Lyft, also previously said they would donate to organizations that support women's rights, such as Planned Parenthood and Fund Texas Choice.”

There is no longer a sideline in America. As in all downward cycles of ruling countries – YOU DON’T GET TO BE MODERATE - you must pick a side (Ray Dalio, Principles for Dealing with The Changing World Order: Why Nations Succeed and Fail, 2022). 

Atlassian is supporting staff who need to travel for abortions, Microsoft is pledging support. Apple supports travel out of state when needed, Bumble and Netflix are on board. Hell even JP Morgan and Goldmann and Sachs have prepared for this day and are offering paid leave and travel expenses to support staff who might need it. Companies have been preparing quietly for this possible ruling. 

Patagonia has been very supportive of staff in need on twitter and publically (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/business/abortion-companies-travel-expenses.html)

Yelp has been preparing:

"This ruling puts women's health in jeopardy, denies them their human rights, and threatens to dismantle the progress we've made toward gender equality in the workplaces since Roe," Jeremy Stoppelman, co-founder of Yelp (YELP), said in a statement Friday. "Business leaders must step up to support the health and safety of their employees by speaking out against the wave of abortion bans that will be triggered as a result of this decision, and call on Congress to codify Roe into law." ( (https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/24/tech/companies-abortion-reaction/index.html )

It is hard not to see this  Supreme Court decision as a whipsaw reaction to gender equality progress and a rebellion against cancel culture and the me too movement. RBG would be rolling over in her grave. Some very important people in America are very, very angry. Those in power do not like their positions threatened. Hell Disney is even getting on board and offering assistance publicly to employees. 

This decision will affect the stock market. This decision will affect the companies you and I are invested in. I for one will be looking at a company’s policies to support its staff.  This matters. Having 50% of the workforce fearful and downtrodden isn’t good for the economy in the US or globally. I implore each of you here to read. 

An excellent place to start is by understanding the history and what it has taken for women to earn the right to work. Books that can articulate this far better than I can:

The Double X Economy – Linda Scott (what is looks like when ½ the population of a country is underutilized) 

The War on Women – Sue Lloyd Roberts (sex slavery and the abuse of women by people in positions of power globally) 

She Said – Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey ( Breaking Sexual Harrassment)

My Life on the Road – Gloria Steinmen 

Progress in women’s rights and equality has been made due to these giants and many others. Their voices are important. This issue is important. This will affect the economy.

Not so cheery

Nnyck 

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Alpha18
2 years ago

Hi @Nnyck777

I am someone that has told others or ‘lambasted’ them as you say, that it is inappropriate to make political posts on an investing forum and I stand by that. 

While I can already envisage many reading the start of this post and lining up to bash me for my anti-human rights and pro gun views, I have to disappoint them. I am both pro-abortion and incredibly anti guns. I’m not sure many are grateful enough for the life we sometimes take for granted in Australia. I know I’m not. I’m not arguing that any country is a utopia but on a comparative level I think we’re incredibly fortunate to live where we do (I assume most Straw people call Australia home). 

Not that my political views are at all relevant, but my point is while I agree with the vast majority of what you’ve written there, it’s clearly a political post despite the tenuous link to ESG and the economy. 

Twitter is a fantastic platform if used well but has become incredibly political (from both sides of politics). Ditto Facebook. However these are people’s personal Twitter and Facebook accounts, they can clearly write whatever they want (within reason) and if I don’t like it guess what? Just block or unfriend them. It’s a free resource and no one is forcing me to be there. If a non-political podcast that I enjoy starts to become a politically themed one ofcourse that annoys me but guess what? I don’t have to listen. While you could argue I don’t have to be on Strawman either, I think an investing forum that everyone pays hundreds of dollars a year to be on has the right to have that space that is free from politics (because nothing else is these days). To eliminate the risk of misunderstanding, I’m not for one second minimising the enormity of the current events in the U.S, or saying that Women’s rights, Gender Equality and Gun Control aren’t important issues. On the contrary, they are incredibly important and everyone has the right to voice their opinion. That’s one of the benefits of democracy. I can feel the passion reading your post and I applaud you for it - my point is that I don’t think this is the right forum for that. There’s so many other places that are. While no one has made me the politics police I really don’t think it’s too much to ask to make Strawman a politics free zone for the reasons I’ve outlined. I’m writing this despite agreeing with your views but I need to be consistent here. 

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