Forum Topics Investing for children
raymon68
Added 2 months ago

Rask has a crack at investing for Children...>>

Investing for kids 101


Investing for kids in Australia is confusing. 


The tax on child/minor accounts means that most parents and grandparents get really worried about setting up an account incorrectly. Then there are the 'which platform do I use?' and 'what do I invest in?' questions that stump us.


Let's break it all down.


The why


Investing for kids, especially if they're driving it, is a fantastic thing. So buy yourself a nice bottle of red - because if they're asking you about it, you're nailing the parenting thing. 


The reason it's such a good thing is because even if the dollar amount is small, investing with your child gives you an opportunity to also gift your knowledge, your time and your love. They become more worldly people.


Finally, the laws of compounding mean the child has a great opportunity to grow a portfolio. The sooner you can get started, the better.


The how


Adults must legally own shares/ETFs on behalf of kids in Australia. In other words, any investment must be in the parent's  legal name - even if the investment is held 'beneficially' for the child.


Your chosen brokerage or investment app will have instructions on how to set this up. Some do it automatically and some have specific types of 'kids accounts'. 


For accounts with balances under $30,000, I'm inclined to have the child's tax file number (TFN) on the investment account (still in the adult's legal name).


This means they pay the tax (even if the % tax rate is higher). Your accountant would be able to advise the best option, tax-wise, for you. 


But for me, based on my reading and the (mixed) ATO guidance, using the child's TFN may help avoid capital gains tax (CGT) when the shares transfer to them at age 18 (or whenever you choose). 


For balances over $30,000, or if you have planned on adding more money (dollar-cost averaging) or if there may be additional complexity expected along the way (e.g. business owners or investors with larger sums of capital), I'd at least consider a family trust. 


As our Rask's very own tax optimiser, James Phelan, wrote recently, there are pros and cons when using a family trust to invest


I use a family trust and invest in ETFs in my own name for Charlie.


The what


So what should parents actually invest in?


For my bigger balances, I follow the Rask Invest Luna strategy with ETFs, VAS & IVV.


We also have a small Raiz account for Charlie. It trickles higher every month, thanks to recurring investments, round-ups and the stock market generally going higher. 


When he's a bit older, maybe 5-15+, I'll shift to only buying shares/stocks with him. But for now, the ETFs are fine.


1 mistake I see parents make


Most parents I'm speaking to are now using ETFs for everything. And I think that's a big mistake.


Put me on record: I think going 'all in' on ETFs for kids is a mistake.


Why?


Sure, you'll probably do okay if you buy a couple of simple index ETFs. 


But doing so misses the most important thing when it comes to kids and money: learning to invest is far more important than the returns they make. 


No kid cares about how many basis points in fees you saved on VASA200 or A300.


No kid cares about whether you went with the IVV or VGS ETF.


Every kid will switch off when you mention active versus passive investing. 


No kid wants to hear you explain 'ETFs are like a basket...'


Finance is not just about money. But that's especially true with kids.


My kids investing curriculum


Here's how I'm thinking about fusing money and learning... 


Age 0 - 5


We're buying the Luna ETF portfolio in our family trust and trickling extra income into a Raiz kids account.


For teaching strategies at this age, instant gratification is the name of the game. So any good money habit is reinforced by an immediate reward.


Age 5 - 13


My plan is to start buying as many consumer-style stocks (Nike, Woolworths, McDonald's, Roblox, Google, Westfield, Apple, Tesla, etc.) for Charlie as I can.


Of course, I'll be explaining what they are every time we see them at the shops. It's about immersing him in the business world at every opportunity.


Add money based on chores, achievements and birthdays. 


Age 13 - 16


At this age, I like to introduce stock games. Think: mini competitions.


This usually only works if the child has shown some interest. But what I usually do is print off or write down 5-6 different stock names, including their logos and basic information. Then I get them to pick the one they want to buy. I pick another one, so then it becomes a 'Play Off'. 


At this age, or even slightly earlier, I begin asking them to recap the performance at family dinners or more regularly. By making it a game, with real prizes (cash money & stocks), they also discover the power of incentives - a critical life lesson. 


Age 15+


Hand over the reins to them. Full decision-making across all of the money. They're going to get it soon, anyway. 


At this age, they can't cash it in, but by now they have full accountability to the money, so they can understand the pain of loss, and the joy of gain.


By also requiring them to work, no matter your financial situation, it adds relevance to the value of time and money.


Money is more than numbers


If you have any strategies or tips that have worked for you, especially games or methods to engage them, let me know in our free investor community.


As you can probably tell, the 'which broker' and tax stuff is easy and not really important over the course of a child's life.


What is more important is trying to teach them lifelong lessons by making your investing strategies relevant and engaging at every stage of their life. This will require different tools and games. 


Finally, think carefully about what you're actually gifting a child. Money without values can have negative consequences.


Onward & upward,


Owen Rask

12
nerdag
Added 2 months ago

Slightly OT for this group, but if anybody knows the answer, somebody here must surely know.

I started investing as a trustee for my child some years ago, and set up a Pearler Account with an informal trust i.e., shares are legally owned by Parent as Trustee for the Child.

As per previous post, it's most Berkshire and a few ETFs.

At the application stage, I quoted the child's TFN, but somehow Pearler/Open Markets screwed up the application and my TFN got quoted.

The first year, I was surprised I had to pay tax in my name, so asked what happened and Pearler said no error on their end, check with your accountant. So I did and the accountant said that's how such an informal trust arrangement should work.

I didn't question it for a further two or three l years until Pearler emailed me out of the blue and said 'Sorry we messed up and quoted the wrong TFN even though you provided your child's TFN. We can't tell you what to do, but our account allows for transferring ownership at age 18 so you have not experienced any loss'.

So I ask my accountant whether I can change the TFN now, and he says, no, it's a CGT event if you do. By this time, the portfolio is up 20% or so, and paying CGT is going to be a capital loss of half that. The CGT is a five figure sum - not insignificant.

I ask Pearler how they are going to rectify this on account of their stuff up, and they say 'not our problem'.

I ask the accountant whether I should cut my losses and change the TFN, so that I don't have an even bigger CGT event in my own name when the child turns 18. To my surprise, I am told no, that would not be a CGT event, unlike a TFN change before age 18.

So I've left it for another 18 months until reading today about a similar structural issue in another person's portfolio held as trustee for the child, resulting in a large CGT event at the top MTR. AskATO/ATO community website is suitably useless.

The capital gain today is edging 40%, so a much more significant sum if I have to pay CGT to correct the error.

So which is it?

Is owning assets in an informal Trust arrangement enough to prevent a CGT event upon transfer of shares at age 18, even if then TFN is changed at that time?

I'm resigned to paying tax on income (negligible anyway) until the child turns 18 if it is a CGT event to change the TFN before age 18.

I just don't want to pay CGT in my name at the top MTR given the intention of structuring it this way was to avoid the CGT event until the child sold the shares in smaller lots later in life.

I don't want to gift money to them at age 18, I want them to own the own assets, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

Any wiser heads or tax gurus in this group know what the answer is?

19

Strawman
Added 2 months ago

That sounds like a real pain in the backside @nerdag, sorry to hear it. Pearler's handling of this issue is, frankly, unconscionable.

I'm no tax expert, but I do believe you can seek a private ruling from the ATO. If they rule in your favour, you could fix the TFN issue without triggering CGT, and possibly amend past returns. I think you can initiate the process from their website.

(also, well done on your DRO holding!)

18

nerdag
Added 2 months ago

Cheers @Strawman.

Private ruling is the way it's looking.

Droneshield was as much luck as it was a willingness to hold on for the ride.

I swore never to miss the opportunity to sell again when the valuation got ahead of itself after I missed out on selling into last year's price spike, and held on this time for just long enough.

No regrets, and will buy back in at a more sensible price for the long haul. At least until it gets pumped again.

13

UlladullaDave
Added 2 months ago

Pearler emailed me out of the blue and said 'Sorry we messed up and quoted the wrong TFN even though you provided your child's TFN. We can't tell you what to do, but our account allows for transferring ownership at age 18 so you have not experienced any loss'.


I ask Pearler how they are going to rectify this on account of their stuff up, and they say 'not our problem'.


If they have admitted fault and it's going to cost you money then speak to a lawyer and make it their problem...

Any media outlet would love the story.

That seems like a much easier route to take than dealing with the ATO for a PR.

11

nerdag
Added 2 months ago

@UlladullaDave, it'd be within the small claims jurisdiction as the loss is under 20k. Lawyers don't bother with small claims as it is intended to be a low cost jurisdiction.

It would only be a sexy story if I was a battler in the outer suburbs saving for my child's future.

Alas, I am in the outer suburbs, but work as a very well paid professional who has saved a six figure sum for their primary school aged child.

I don't think the odds of that story coming out in my favour on ACA or the tabloid media are good.

15

Shapeshifter
Added 2 months ago

@nerdag I wanted to add my 2 cents as it may help.

I fairly recently went through this process with my younger two children and opened share trading accounts in trust for them with me as the trustee - just like you have. However I intentionally made the decision to quote my own TFN.

There were two main reasons for this:

Firstly income gained from a child’s share portfolio that has the child’s TFN quoted is generally not considered excerpted income so any income over $416 is taxed at 66% with income over $1,307 taxed at 45%. This is obviously a big slug and was put in place to stop tax avoidance and has ruined it for the rest of us. Now it is possible to over come this problem by minimising the dividend paying stocks and holding all the gains as unrealised ie just handover the portfolio when your child is 18 ripe with unrealised gains.

Secondary if you quote your child’s TFN and they earn more than $416 you must lodge a tax return for them. Personally I struggle to get my own tax returns in and don’t want the burden of extra ones each year.

The other thing is the ATOs own advice on their website states if the shareholder is the child, quote the child's TFN or if the parent is trustee for the child, and no formal trust exists, quote the parent's TFN.

I am definitely not a tax expert but hopefully I can transition over the accounts to the children when they turn 18 and not trigger a tax event. The obvious problem with this is who the hell knows what the tax’s rules will be by the time that happens?!

So I say focus on the real game here which is maximising returns for your children and let go of the other issues which are probably outside your control at this point. Generally there is no green grass anywhere when it comes to to tax treatment in Australia.

14

nerdag
Added 2 months ago

@Shapeshifter, that's what I did and intended to do. Pearler say otherwise, as does the accountant.

I'm getting a private ruling on account of Pearler's screw up, as what do to now is as clear as mud.

12
rh8178
Added 3 years ago

I have been sitting on a small sum that the kids grandfather transferred us for them a few years ago. Having heard Scott on the MF podcast and seen this conversation, I made my first tentative steps into investing for my children this week. They have about $7k each to invest - took the view that I'd give them 3 stocks to pick and invest about $2k in those picks and then split balance between an Australian index ETF and a NASDAQ ETF. So far my son (9 year old going on 10) has said he wanted "Kmart" and Tesla - my daughter (7 year old going on 15) "Smiggle", "Kmart" and Mr Toys (I have no idea if this can even be bought). So I bought about $600 worth of WES for son and daughter and $600 of PMV for daughter. So it's really day one today. Talking my son through the purchase (we are down about $12 so far on WES).

Me: So I bought you those shares in Kmart we talked about - it's actually a company called Wesfarmers - did you know it owns Bunnings as well?

Son: Great - so how many shares do I own?

Me: 13

Son: So if there's 14 shares in the company do I own most of it?

Me: Yes that would be technically right...buuuut there's more like 750 million shares so you don't own a lot, but you do own a small piece of it.

Son: (completely ignoring me) so I own most of Kmart now...when can I buy most of Tesla?

Me: as soon as I set you up on international trading, but there's like a gazillion shares, so you won't own much of that either.

Son: Awesome! So when I own most of Tesla, I'll be the richest kid in the world...

Me: Sigh....

Off to a good start!



27
Slomo
Added 3 years ago

I looked into this a while ago as I wanted to give nieces and nephews some shares on milestone birthdays - 13th ($500), 18th ($1k), 21st ($1k) to hopefully provoke an interest in investing.

I found it too difficult to do this directly so I simply set up a separate brokerage account with low brokerage charges - I used Bell Direct ($15 bro).

Then I buy usually a few 'lot's of $500 (being the minimum AS trade size) in growth shares I hold that I think will do well over a few years, when prices look good. No dividend payers to keep it simple.

I then write them up a one pager on the shares and the process to include in a birthday card at the time.

I track all this in XL and make up a P&L for them to show them each birthday, but so they can also do the numbers based on current share prices if they like.

The deal is if they want their cash out at the next milestone, it's theirs. If they want to roll over I will add more shares at the next milestone with final cash out aged 25.

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