Forum Topics TOP TOP Bear Case

Pinned straw:

Added 9 months ago

$TOP annual report out and the clown show rolls on... In the past 5 years the fund is down $163k and Management have been paid $22.7 million.96117436da648d8a9df4c17aa63cc419140426.png

Scoonie
9 months ago

Clown show just about say it all.

From the Annual report:

“Management fee is calculated at 0.75% of the gross assets. A performance fee of 20% of the increase in the net asset value net of base management fee for the year. The base management fee is calculated half yearly (my underlining added) while the performance fee is calculated on an annual basis”    .

The manager is Thorney Management Services owned by Alex Waislitz..

Note the half yearly calculation of the base fee means the annual management fee is near enough to 1.5%. (Nice little sleight of hand to write it up as 0.75% half yearly)

The 20% performance fee is calculated on an annual basis, however the annual report does not state the benchmark that needs to be exceeded for payment of the performance fee.  (You can bet it is pretty low). Also the annual report is silent as to whether a “high water mark” operates.  Guess what? There is no high water mark. So the asset value goes down, then up again, as often as not due to the gyrations of the market alone, and management takes a 20% cut!

Over the last five years management has ripped out around 4% of the asset value out of TOP every year.

TOP you will see from time to time trumpeted by a sympathetic journalists (or a just plain ignorant journalist) as having a share price at a discount to Net Tangible Assets of over 20% and offering a great bargain.

The only one doing any good out of TOP, or likely to ever do any good out of TOP is Mr Waislitz.

 

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ArrowTrades
9 months ago

The bench mark is pretty low alright it is zero.

This is the most egregious fee structure I have seen, a complete farce, why none of their peers or the media ever call them out is beyond me... It's almost like they are scared to touch it.

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stevegreenycom
9 months ago

It might actually be about 10 years since TOP was formed through the backdoor listing of Wentworth holdings. My broker screen has a 10-year shareholder return figure of 3% per annum.

Happy 10-year birthday long term initial TOP holders!

All the articles when it started mentioned the 20% per annum plus Waislitz got for his private investors decades prior, the Australian Buffett appeared in some stories.

So far it is falling a bit short of the 20% returns marketed..

2018 AFR Rich List: Meet Australia’s ‘Warren Buffett’, Alex Waislitz


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stevegreenycom
9 months ago

@ArrowTrades it would be rude not to mention the cousin TEK ASX, might be worth running a similar spreadsheet on that one. I think there was also a dilutive capital raise TEK did in 2021 at 40 cents.

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thunderhead
9 months ago

The "next famous-so-and-so" framing is often a yellow/red flag in itself. As if people of the calibre of Uncle Warren are just floating around among us mere mortals...

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ArrowTrades
9 months ago

Same fee structure it will end the same way. I went with TOP to highlight the rip off as they literally had a long only portfolio any one could copy, yet were charging these fees. Whilst TEK is just as bad, at least they could pitch they were getting access to deal flow retail can't.

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stevegreenycom
6 months ago

Did I just read thorney have put in place a “high watermark” feature for the future?

Does it now go from the worst management fee structure ever imaginable to still possibly the worst anyway but not as bad as before?

Maybe Alex couldn’t handle the pressure from @ArrowTrades spreadsheet calcs?

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CanadianAussie
6 months ago

Well at least now they don't get compensated for poor performance.

Well done @ArrowTrades

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stevegreenycom
6 months ago

Well it is still about the worst fee structure despite this tweak. So they may well produce low single digit nominal returns for many years in the future, well below the ASX200 accumulation index, and still get "performance" fees.

So not quite party time for Thorney shareholders. I would describe it as possibly getting screwed a tad less than previously. :)


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ArrowTrades
6 months ago

Fear the spreadsheets, haha.

He is probably running around like some type hero and a saviour. How about you introduce a benchmark while you're at it!!

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