Forum Topics A little investment test
Slomo
Added 8 months ago

Very interesting @Solvetheriddle.

Always good to be asking questions like that I reckon.

I like to think it's a little context dependent but I may be kidding myself.

Like @Noddy74 I see myself as moving from Type 2 to Type 1 more over time, although there is some aspiration to that and not sure I will ever 100% arrive at Type 1.

That said, for some opportunities (Smaller positions with lots of blue sky) Type 4 could be successful as you say - especially if you take a portfolio / VC approach with a few of them.

The big risk being a straddled strategy and keeping an eye on yourself and your positions so you always "Know what you own and why you own it" as Peter Lynch liked to say.

I think for Type 4, there's another risk - chasing small companies going after big markets.

This can be tempting but big markets attract big competitors with deeper pockets.

I've found that this usually puts you at the mercy of a take over from bigger competitors, unless they get innovation before you get distribution, they you are stranded unless you are far enough ahead and can grow quickly - hence the need to be a true believer.

In any case the type 4 portion is probably best left as a small part of the portfolio and so not allocate more than you would be happy to accept as a tuition fee for some harsh lessons learned down the track...

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Solvetheriddle
Added 8 months ago

An Interesting Little Test

When I was an analyst/PM at times I worked for weaker investing institutions. The consequence of this was that there would be a steady turnover in investing people. Working with new people constitutes a large risk in investing because you are unaware of their strengths, weaknesses and biases and probably will not know those for a couple of years or even until there is a market crisis and see how they react. That can be a costly exercise I found.

To help speed up that process of analyzing the analysts I devised a little test. The test has no right answers. The test was to help me characterize the people I was working with. Of course, there is no substitute for years of watching and talking to people through different market environments to assess their mental processes, how they believed markets worked and what were their processes or philosophies.

The test starts with a story, it’s a real story but I didn’t want to get into a stock-specific rabbit hole, which people love to do, so I generalized the story. Its 1998, the internet is becoming a “thing” in investing around the world. Almost everyone alive realizes this is going to be huge. The issues for me were the difficulty in identifying winners or even winning business models. I was pretty sure the ultimate winners would be global, probably US-based since the internet was global. Possibly with some local variations.

The stock market went strong bull on any story associated with the internet. Companies that for years had been speculative mining stocks, changed their names to something internet-themed and the stock prices went up, a lot! Crazy times we had never seen before. Only the late 1980’s deregulation boom was as close as I have seen to that one.

As a valuation-based investor at the time with a strict discipline on calculating a company’s valuation on a stock that I could have faith in and buying and selling accordingly, this was an amusing event, but not something I believed was sustainable, and importantly, did not fit my process. The process I was following was working extremely well.

Against this backdrop, I was offered an allocation in an internet float (back when IPO investing was allowed by investing staff). I read the prospectus end to end. The company named a lot of celebrities, Greg Norman etc who would be the face of an array of initiatives to carve out a space in the new emerging world. All very exciting and although there was a possibility of the company achieving a business, there was no business in existence at this time. There was also little in assets, there were letters of agreement to redo stuff on the net etc. This business was very speculative in what the market perceived as an exciting new dawn. There was a chance it could be worth zero.

What happened? I took an allocation and sweated. The company was outside my investing style, outside my competence circle and I realized this was a huge valuation bubble and fretted that it would collapse before the listing date. Usually, I don’t fret about my investments.

The stock was listed at a 30% premium, I sold and congratulated myself but felt relieved and a bit dirty as well. As if I had gotten something I didn’t deserve. The stock went on from its $1 ipo price it would peak around $4 later that year. When the slide started in March 2000 this company went if it. I can't recall whether it went under or was taken out at a few cents in the dollar. It doesn’t matter it was a disaster for those who held to the end.

Then I relate this story to the analyst and ask what you think I should have done. The responses fall into four categories. Again, there is no right answer but it helps me classify what type of investor I was dealing with (IMO).

Type one is the Process disciple. You betrayed your investment philosophy and process, luckily you got away with handling a live grenade before it went off but that outcome does not forgive the poor judgement you showed by taking on the risk.

Type two is the pragmatist. You did the right thing, although it was outside your style and competence but the market was crazy at the time and you may as well have profited from it. It’s a sideshow but if there is a coin on the floor, pick it up even if it is not supposed to be there.

Type three- the hindsight expert. You did the right thing but obviously you sold way too early, this market was hot, and everyone knew that it would go higher, what you needed to do was judge when the game was up and get out. You left too much money on the table.

Type four is the True believer, yeah I was in those stocks, I still can't believe how they collapsed when the internet was the biggest thing that had been invented since writing. The opportunity was huge and these companies were placing themselves at the forefront of a new era. There will be big winners here. I was going to call this category the dreamer, but that is unkind.

There are others but these categories cover most people. What did I do with that information? IMO it tells me a lot about how the person invests. I fall in between types one and two. Type three I find the most dangerous because they believe that the markets are much more forecastable than they are, or their belief in their abilities is just unrealistic. No one rings a bell.

The fourth category is interesting. Not my bag at all but these guys are the ones out on the edge of the risk/return spectrum. If they can keep their capital intact and not get obliterated, their next pick could be AMZN or some other moonshot that comes in. The base rate of success here is too low for me, but the corresponding payoff on success is very high. Some of these guys will win big.

Hope you found that interesting, where do you fit? 

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Noddy74
Added 8 months ago

That's fascinating @Solvetheriddle

One of the things it highlights to me is the investment journey you go on. I think I started out as a type 2, with a lean towards type 3. The longer I play, the more I head towards type 1. I think I aspire to be type 1, without any expectation I'll get there and am now somewhere between type 2 and type 1. However, it's all very well to say that - we won't actually know until we get back to the full-on microcap bull market of 2021 or the full-on microcap bear market of 2022. Have I really learnt lessons (and the right ones) from that period or do I just think I have?

One of the changes I've made to my process is to say it's ok to take some profits while still staying invested, so long as you can articulate clearly why. So I took most off the table when Aussie Broadband recently put a bid in for Superloop, I took some off the table when Vysarn last announced (less than I wanted because I got a bit greedy) and I took most of Veem off the table as the price got increasingly hard to justify and results of their Sharrow trial kept getting delayed. As it turns out if the siren were blown now I should have gotten fully out of all three, but it won't always be that way and I'm comfortable with the decision I took. I still fundamentally like all three companies, there's still a price at which I would be a buyer for all three, but we're just not there right now and I'm happy to hold an underweight position (except for Vysarn which is overweight IRL because I got a bit greedy on price, so still lessons to learn...).

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Rick
Added 8 months ago

I love it @Solvetheriddle. A great story and a clever test! I’m definitely a Type 1. I would pick up a coin with some arbitrage, a coin with asymmetric opportunities, or a gold coin covered in muck which will take a while to clean, but I’d draw the line on a shiny gold frosted counterfeit that the crowds are all fighting over!

To be honest, the best lesson for me would be to lose on the first bet. When I was a kid and it came to Melbourne Cup Day, my Grandad refused to bet and would say ‘the race horses still owe me a dollar!” :)

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Solvetheriddle
Added 8 months ago

@Noddy74 one of the advantages that retail has over insto is the flexibility to calibrate their positions (there are other advantages as well). these days i have no hesitation in doing that, so liberating!

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Bear77
Added 8 months ago

Good story and good test @Solvetheriddle - I try to be type 1, but often find that I'm more investor type 2, probably a bit of both, but aiming to be type 1.

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shearman
Added 8 months ago

I think that most long term successful investors would likely move closer to Type 1 as they learn/improve.

Viewed as a learning problem though - a key question is how long / how many different investments do you need to make of Type 2/3/4 before you get enough conviction that Type 1 is probably more successful and have enough self control to stick to it.

Reflecting on my own journey (similar to others from the comments here) I figure the convergence to Type 1 is impacted by things like

  • Number of investments you make
  • Length of time investing - so you see how different approaches work in different phases of the bull/bear/bubble/recession market (and market cycles)
  • Degree that you honestly measure the results of the different types (and are honest with yourself)
  • How much success you have in Type 2/3/4 due to luck
  • How much skill you actually have with Type 1/2/3/4 (some people can probably have better results than others)
  • Do you have the discipline and emotional control to stay on Type 1 (not be distracted by 2/3/4)


For the last 12-18 months Ive started analysing each investment over the last 15 years (including each individual BUY/SELL) - and trying to understand what success/failure was due to good/bad decisions vs luck vs timing - and trying to extract some clearer rules and to document my strategy/approach going forward.


Out of this there are a few things Ive 'learnt' or convinced myself of:

  • Im way more successful investing in quality or profitable growing companies than turnarounds , traditional 'value' or speculative situations
  • Once a company is investable - Being very patient and disciplined with BUYing at the right valuation/price can turn an average investment (say 10% IRR) into a good investment (say 15-20% IRR)
  • Hold forever is not the most successful strategy - selling down/reducing average investments (say 10-15% IRR) when the valuation is too high and buying back in at better valuations also can help turn average into good.
  • There are some high quality companies with high growth rates that you really do have to pay up for (high pe) - but you really need to be confident how long that growth will go for - otherwise you will end up with an average investment as the multiple comes down


Ive also recently started writing some software for personal use to try and automate a BUY/SELL checklist + tracking performance of key metrics vs the strategy.

As I figure the only way I can get leverage out of a process is to:

  • Automate measuring of results + how well I follow the process
  • Automate decision trigger alerts (obviously I still need to decide to action) e.g. price vs valuation triggers
  • Make it easier to learn the specifics of how to improve the strategy/process (by automating the analysis of how the strategy is working)


Hopefully if I can achieve this I can actually end up as a Type 1 investor






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Solvetheriddle
Added 8 months ago

@shearman very good plan, i wrote up, maybe a couple of years ago, a similar analysis i did of my investing record 1985-1993 and came to the conclusions you make above. everyone's skills lie in different areas, and recognising yours as early as you can is very beneficial. I've known many very good investors during my career, what stands out is that usually, their expertise is quite narrow but keeping within that competency gives them a big edge, as well as having more common sense than others lol. the only thing i would add to your process is that i have found journaling your ideas over time is very helpful and illuminating (good and bad)

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shearman
Added 8 months ago

Thanks @Solvetheriddle

Ive started journalling in last 18 months - at least noting buy/sell reasoning

But still have to turn it into a more rigorous discipline

Also I need to do it for a while before I can look back and get better insights

Im aiming to have the s/w Im developing automatically record the quantitative aspects of any buy/sell/valuation + checklist evaluation at the time

In such a way I can one day do some analysis to see which aspects Im falling down on or is working well

e.g. is there always a strong ROE history when I buy, were the sales and earnings history stable, was there reasonable inside ownership etc

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