Forum Topics SHA SHA CEO & CFO Meeting

Pinned straw:

Added a month ago

I'll be honest, I went in expecting all the usual headaches of construction (cyclicality, wafer-thin margins, cost blowouts etc) but the conversation with Peter and Scott did soften those concerns.

Shape seem extremely selective in what they bid for. Their CRM (built on Salesforce) scores every opportunity, and they’ll only price roughly half the pipeline; of what they do price, they win about ~50% by number (34% by value), which they tell me is unusually high for the industry.

What they're going for is short-duration, mostly indoor work, which naturally limits weather and cost escalation risks. Average job is ~$3m over ~16 weeks; over 80% of projects complete inside 12 months. That short, fast book means they can reprice quickly if input costs move.

Peter was also very deliberate on how Shape removes/manages risks for clients. Their whole model is built around buying the risk, managing it tightly, and pushing it down to subcontractors through firm lump sum agreements. That locks in pricing early, so if materials jump in cost they are not exposed and all time, cost, and quality risk sits with the trades rather than Shape.

They also reduce risk through early contractor involvement on complex jobs. By helping finalise the design, they remove buildability issues, swap out impractical materials, shorten programs, and give clients more certainty. At the same time, they negotiate better margins because the work is awarded before a competitive tender.

Just as important is what they refuse to take on. Peter said they are contractors, not gamblers, and if they cannot identify and control a risk they simply walk away. Even before work begins they improve their position by re-tendering trade packages once the job is secured, which usually results in sharper pricing and less risk from day one.

The balance sheet is also a real edge. They finished FY25 with $128m in cash and marketable securities, no debt, and daily averages near $99m (low point ~$60m during the year). They hold liquidity partly to meet pre-qualification ratios for $100m+ projects and to keep tender boxes “green.”

Cash generation looks strong for this model too: FY25 operating cash flow was ~$53m, ~160% of EBITDA (helped by the month-in, month-out cash cycle on subcontracted works).

The customer engine is all about trust and repetition: NPS of +85 and ~85% of work from repeat clients, heavily skewed to ASX100/200 counterparties with transparent lease expiries (which gives forward visibility and recycling of work every ~7 years).

They describe themselves as the only truly national builder across all mainland states and territories, with recent regional office openings. They’ve diversified beyond pure office fit-outs into Health, Education, Defence, and added Modular and Facade remediation, all in an effort all to smooth sector swings while staying in short-cycle work.

The corporate structure and employee incentive angle was also interesting. They run a central corporate backbone with most decision making left to the regional teams. It is a decentralised structure with clear authority levels and multiple layers of review, which keeps things moving quickly while still maintaining strong checks and balances. Estimating flows up through bid managers, commercial managers, general managers and the executive team before landing on Peter’s desk when needed. It creates discipline without slowing the business down.

On incentives, people get paid more when the business performs better, and the incentive structure is designed to feel like a genuine win-win rather than a zero-sum internal contest. They want collaboration, not sandbagging. Peter emphasised that in a people driven services business, culture is the moat, so they work hard to make Shape a place where staff want to stay and where good behaviour is rewarded. The overall effect is a structure that empowers teams, keeps risk in check and aligns incentives with outcomes that matter to clients and shareholders.

All told, this is a people/services business with a long profitable history, low capital intensity, and a deliberate bias to short-cycle, repeat client work, and all underwritten by a fat cash buffer. On the near-term outlook, the $492m backlog and $4.0bn pipeline give decent visibility. And on that score, a PE of ~24x doesnt seem too onerous.

Still, there are risks such as sustained office weakness (their core is still office), execution as they push harder into modular/new build, and any slippage in tender conversion. But on balance, after the chat, this feels less like “construction roulette” and more like a repeatable, cash-generative niche.  

You can see the recording on the meetings page and access the transcript here: Shape Australia Transcript.pdf

jcmleng
Added 4 weeks ago

Following this keenly as I dip my toes out of my competence zone and explore other companies. Have also been deep into David Gardner's Rule Breaker Investing book (a really good read that is challenging a lot of my long held beliefs and practices) and in the past day or so, Buffet-ing out of my ears, so questions below are highly biased based on these:

There are a lot of positives to SHA - good financials, good track record of repeats, strong management etc but key questions running in my head:

1. Is SHA the top dog in the fitout industry?

2. How does it sustain its dominant position to keep its competitive advantage and the "durability" of that competetive advantage?

3. Is M&A the way to go - does this make SHA a roll-up/pseudo roll-up play in the future, and what are the risks of these (@Bear77's GEM post is still ringing in my ears!)

No question that there appears to be great management in place to navigate and manage these challenges, but is this merely compensating for the not-a-given competitive position and the need to keep working hard to not fall behind.

Discl: Not Held

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thetjs
Added 4 weeks ago

@jcmleng my thoughts below.

  1. No. But if talking about the top tier of fitout companies (in our east coast cities) they are in the top 4 easily. They would be part of generally any default list of contractors to tender too in the vaste majority of commercial fitout tenders of any decent size (2,000sqm plus).
  2. Georgraphic, sector and service expansion.
  3. Yeah, I thought about this. And I think to an extent it does. It depends how punchy their growth approach is post the next 5 years.

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Rick
Added a month ago

This looks like a great business @Strawman. It’s been on my radar and watchlist for a few years now while it has just kept powering ahead. The ROE was 57% last year and looks like it could be even higher this year. Regretfully I didn’t add it when I started looking at it. I’m keen to look at the current valuation. It could still be a buy?

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Scoonie
Added a month ago

Excellent Strawman interview with the CEO and CFO from Shape. With revenue around $1b across around 400 projects at any one time of average of project value about $3m each, maybe the way to think about Shape is not as a builder but a bakery.  Clearly they have found a special niche in commercial fit outs (60% of revenue) and are growing into areas that seem to make a lot of sense.

However on a FY 25 PE of around 23 times it is not cheap, even with all that cash on the balance sheet.   Maybe Shape is a found rather than a hidden gem.  However thanks to whoever suggested the interview. The only disappointment is the interview did not happen 12 months ago.  

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UlladullaDave
Added a month ago

Agree @Scoonie

I also like the analogy of the bakery not a builder.

This is probably the sort of business to buy at the bottom of the cycle when operating leverage is working at its maximum against them.

Definitely one to add to the watchlist. Thanks for the interesting interview @Strawman

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Rick
Added a month ago

The growth and incremental improvement in ROE looks convincing, but can they continue this trend?

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UlladullaDave
Added a month ago

I reckon you want to see what it looked like here...

That's when you'd have falling gross margins, unwinding operating leverage and falling revenue.

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JohnnyM
Added a month ago

Thanks Strawman for a very good interview. This is the reason I joined SM.. Before today I had never heard of Shape and it's not a business that would usually be of interest. But I was really impressed with the guys and the business far outweighed my expectations.

Like a lot of members it's now on my watch list.. if only it was still 11x earnings like it was earlier last year.

Cheers

JM

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thetjs
Added a month ago

Evening Straw Team,

I unfortunately missed the session today but I do work in construction and have dealt with Shape across a variety of projects and locations for the past decade plus.

With that in mind I wanted to provide some points / items of consideration from one (straw) persons perspective.

  • Senior management has always been strong and, more often than not, of a long tenure. Either a part of the initial operating group or coming up under their wing. 
  • They have a strong internal grad and training program which churns out solid employee’s that are often targeted by competitors given the selection and training pedigree.
  • For a long period of time they were the standout commercial fitout company in terms of product and client relations. Competition has grown significantly since those days but they are ‘still amongst it’
  • Their growth (cross sector) and spread (geographic) has been accelerating over the last 5 - 7 years. At this stage I do (personal opinion) wonder where, in both sector and geography, they will be able to expand to in the coming years. Our sector has stories upon stories of companies growing and growing. To date, it generally leads to negative outcomes if growth is chased without check. 
  • The commercial fitout sector is a highly cyclical one. Highly competitive and segmented, broadly, based on size (sqm and $) and quality/location  (generally $ again). Each one of those segments often have a group of companies that focus/specialise on those areas. Companies often struggle to spread down/across into these areas when the larger opportunities are done. All of this leads to more companies chasing less opportunities.
  • High insider ownership is, generally speaking, good. The company is majority owned by the original group that started Shape, along with senior management. I do wonder what happens to that shareholding if growth slows. Does the dividend continue? Do we see a larger sell by that founding group to walk away with their, rightfully earned, spoils? There are several other similar companies to Shape who have approached or are approaching this part slightly differently. Shape are the only ones, to date, that have gone the public float route. If it’s a success in the medium term we may see more come to market.


Hopefully there is some value for the group in my points above. Let me know if you have any questions or any clarifications. Noting this is just a single persons thoughts.

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Strawman
Added a month ago

Extremely valuable perspective @thetjs -- there's always a lot of nuance that's easy to miss for those of us outside of the industry. While encouraged about your experience with Shape, i'm glad you emphasised the cyclicality and risks of growth. Always worth remembering that operating leverage works both ways, and a dip in revenues combined with multiple compression can really do some damage to the share price, even if it's temporary.

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Slomo
Added a month ago

This is some good intel @thetjs, always good to get a take from the inside.

I'm wondering who else you might have come across in your travels...

I've DM'd you.

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SudMav
Added a month ago

@thetjs you are not alone with your thoughts - I have a colleague that worked with Shape on a construction project a few years ago, and he attested to all of the above. It was part of my decision to dip my toe and buy into the company a few years back.

I regrettably sold my SHA shares mid last year at $2.70 as I had to free up some cash to put a deposit down on my house. I thought they might start to face some headwinds with inflation and the interest rates, but clearly I was wrong on that one.

I continue to have SHA on my watchlist, and looking forward to listing to the SM interview later this week.

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thetjs
Added 4 weeks ago

For what it's worth. Based on my experience with them and exposure to their senior management I would of also bought in when they floated but didnt due to what my professional role was and not wanting to invite any questions around impartiallity etc while working with them.

Funnily enough I was mentally writing this response while walking to the bus today and reflecting on the growth comments I made took me to considering that they would have to consider some M&A to expand into their more non-core areas and also conitnue their growth. Lo and behold what comes up this morning but an M&A annoucement.

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/ASX/asx-research/1.0/file/2924-03021807-2A1635524&v=undefined

I don't see this being the last.

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