Forum Topics ATG ATG Valuation
Noicewon11
Added 5 years ago

@elpaso96

I think you make a good point.

The only point of difference and ultimately why I don't see eye to eye with you is that I don't believe the essence of risk in an investment is captured by volatility, nor Beta for a stock.

In the theoretical formula for the 'discount rate' or cost of equity (COE), we are taught - Rf + B(Rm - Rf). So yes on the basis of this equation, a higher beta reflects higher risk. I don't believe this measure is practicle.

I wouldn't adjust my discount rate from 10% to 15% on the basis that the RBL stock is very volatile. In the short term, most share price movements are just noise and my belief is that price = value in the long run.

I think to @Rapstar's point, the lack of a moat for RBL is much greater of a risk to an investor than the volatility or beta of the stock is. I would be much more likely to adjust my discount rate due to a fundamental factor such as a moat, rather than the noise of the market.

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Rapstar
Added 5 years ago

I agree with elpaso96.   I don't believe Redbubble has a particularly strong moat, and things can rapidly go pear shaped for them if for example, Google decides to adjust their search algos, as happened a few years ago.   

I prefer CTT over RBB atm.  Higher value spent per customer - luxury good svs shitty t-shirts, and CTT seems to be undercutting the entire market and stealing market share at a rapid rate....

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Noicewon11
Added 5 years ago

@Elpaso96

Thanks for providing an update on RBL valuation.

Can you provide some detail on how you go from the 10% EBITDA margin to a valuation of $2.16, and what multiples you use to arrive at that figure. (& similarly for the 15% margin on the bullish case.)

 

Also, why a 15% discount rate. I get you pointed to the stock being volatile but the risk free rate is at a low of ~2%. It feels strange to me that one would need to discount at such an aggressive rate.

The following is an excerpt from someone on hotcopper that highlights the point I am trying to make;

 

"
If, as an investor, one discounted equity investments using as much a 13% spread over risk-free rates, one would be limited to owning stocks only a few weeks every decade or so.

The rest of the time equities would be too expensive for you."

 

 

 

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elpaso96
Added 5 years ago

You are gonna laugh but literally added a cell in the spreadsheet for EBITDA margin. In this case 10% and 15% respectively. I did not calculate the margin as it's an input variable the CEO is targeting for 2024. No multiples used, just a quick DCF.  

Yea the 15% discount rate was very high primarily due to the high beta I gave which was 2.5. Meaning Redbubble is 2.5 times more volatile than the market which is kind of true recently. Although, I do admit I am pushing it and being highly conservative on that. Equity risk premium of 6% coming from the countries they operate in. Risk free rate was 1.6% same government yield. 

Cost of Equity = rf + (Equity risk premium* Beta) - Beta of 2.5 pushes the COE up dramatically. I guess to be accurate with Beta, you can extract daily stock price change volatility over previous years and measure volatility through formulas.   

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Strawman
Added 5 years ago

I like to think of the discount rate as the rate of return I would need for a given investment. So a 10% discount rate just means I would need a 10% return on cash invested (or more technically, the return i'd want on a company's future cash flows). The higher the uncertainty/risk, the higher the discount rate i'll use.

Accpeted wisdom is that you apply a premium on the "risk free" rate, but that just means you should be happy to accept a lower equity return when other alternatives are offering lower rates. And that makes perfect sense. But as a long term investor, and one with a focus on small caps, 10% is about as low as I am prepared to go (eg targeting a 7% annual return on a pre-profit, early stage company just doesnt compensate me for the risks). Also, I think it's worth allowing for the fact that the risk free rate could well be higher in the future -- which is kind of what the market is wrestling with right now due to inflation concerns.

As always, there's no one correct view. Just bear in mind that the lower the discount rate, the lower the return you should be willing to accept. You'll find more opportunities, but that's the trade off.

I think Wollworths is a good example. I reckon long term average EPS growth is likely to 3-4% given it's maturity and size (although i'm sure it will be higher this year). So if you accept that, shares are only fair value if you're happy with a ~6-7% average annual return. That's probably fine for a lot of people, especially given how low risk it is and that you can expect a reliable fully franked dividend. But if you want a 10% annual return as a shareholder -- on average over the long term -- you need to either pay a much lower price (at least <$30) or have expectations for much stronger, and sustained, average annual profit growth.

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elpaso96
Added 5 years ago

“Just bear in mind that the lower the discount rate, the lower the return you should be willing to accept. You'll find more opportunities, but that's the trade off.” 

Exactly, hence that’s why my discount rate of 15% is high. As explained before I gave a beta of 2.5 which means for me Redbubble’s volatility in its stock price is too high. Therefore, I demand a higher required rate of return. The logic should makes sense. 

If I give a beta of 1, which is saying Redbubble has the same risk as the market i.e. ASX200 then the discount rate for me would be 6% + 1.6% = 7.6%. I don’t believe that as ever since the new CEO’s vision we saw a 35% plunge in value while the ASX200 did not change too much. Hence, there is company specific risk in the stock price. You could also argue sector rotation away from tech and into value stocks as the reason for the decline in price (case in point Etsy also fell not to the extent of Redbubble). 

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