Forum Topics CAT CAT Does Data Really Help
Seymourbutts
2 years ago

Giving this one a bump based off an article that I read from the AFR today - which can be found here: What are the advantages of a pro athlete? Here's how it is happening.

For some reason I managed to make it in behind the pay wall via the Instagram story link, not sure if those that try the link above will be able to read it so I've done my best to summarise below.

Long story short, Catapult "said it was working to convert the data and insights gathered by its professional clients into a “prescriptive” platform for amateur teams and athletes, to help improve performance and to help weekend players avoid injury."

Chief executive Will Lopes has said that they are working on a platform for non-professional athletes, such as high school athletes, teams, and college sports "that would incorporate biometric data captured by wearable tracking devices together with videos of athletes training and playing, to predict the outcomes of different training techniques."

"Insights gained from that process would then flow into the platform Catapult was working on for ordinary consumers, bringing professional-grade advice and techniques down to everyday wearables, Mr Lopes told The Australian Financial Review."

So if you were wanting to improve your game/sport/action/activity and mould it to that of a professional athlete you could wear the device that would then advise you where and how to improve. It is estimated that this software is still in the works and roughly 18-24 months away.

Personally I find this quite exciting, I haven't been following the Catapult story for very long but don't believe this to be related to an avenue they previously pursued for 'prosumers', but it sounds very similar - just with more tech and data backed behind it.

I know this is not directly related to aspects of the conversation below regarding injury prevention, but it does mention use of data for injury prevention; “If you could find a way to recreate the professional platforms, and prescribe to consumers ‘here’s how you can avoid injury’, ‘here’s how you can be at peak performance’, it could really have a positive impact in sports,” he said.

Seems to me this reinforces the argument that data does really help - it just depends how it is applied or what scope it is required for.

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NewbieHK
2 years ago

One of the components of the Catapult System is the better quantification of training load (volume and intensity). Sure, someone can have a team do 20min of small sided games and then say ok everyone has done 20min of small sided game work we are all equal. The reality though is that is simply not sufficient if the aim is to improve conditioning and specifically game specific and position specific conditioning.

The catapult system enables coaches to see how much time was spent moving during those 20min, in which intensity bands ie sprinting, jogging, walking and direction and distance of those movements.

This data can then be compared amongst players in the same position to assess work intensities (how hard they worked in those zones and how long they were in those zones both repeated efforts and overall distance/time). This can then be compared amongst players, positions and to the game data to ensure the training load is adequately preparing the athletes for their position specific demands.


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Hi Andrew,

In response to your Straw/question:


What caught my ear, however, was the claim that this data doesn't actually deliver on its claims to "reduce injury and improve performance"

I managed to track down the discussion paper referenced in the story, which can be found here. It's a long read, and the focus is really on the privacy angle. It doesn't elaborate too much on the effectiveness of this data -- and where it does it seems to be on specific metrics.

I don't see this as a thesis buster, and my thinking is that at the elite level clubs will go for anything even if there's a small chance of providing an edge. But I wanted to share in case others have a different perspective.


I have an exercise science degree and a masters in physiotherapy studies and have worked in the industry for over 10 years, albeit not with athletes for the past 3. Hopefully my input adds some value. I'm not deeply familiar with Catapult beyond the fact they offer a wearable device to track certain athlete metrics. I've had a look but struggle to see what metrics they measure aside from heart rate, distance, speed, movement etc.

Training load can be an indicator for injury. For example if an athlete were to go from training twice a week over a 3 week period to 5 times the following week, from memory the science shows they are at increased risk of injury. This training load increase should be gradual. I'm not sure Catapult offers any unique ability here aside from a more streamlined and digital process for monitoring this.

Anecdotally, I would agree that heart rate and distances run are not predictive of injury; aside from monitoring sudden increases in training volume/load as previously mentioned. It appears they may offer a product to ice hockey goalies. I would think the number of up/down movements of the goalie as they transition from standing to butterfly (down on the knees) or the splits and back up could be predictive of injury and would be valuable for monitoring. However, it would likely revolve more around sudden increases in this load than how often they're doing it in a single game or week. Similar to soccer, rugby etc. If a player is spending significantly more time on the field from the previous week, they're risk of injury is going to increase (even if only slightly).


If Catapult are able to monitor joint angles and/or changes in anatomical landmarks (ie knee or hip position) during sport or training things could get really exciting. ACL tears (knee ligament injuries) are more likely to occur in athletes with decreased range of motion (ie flexibility) at the ankle or hip. Sometimes these deficiencies are noticeable on assessment and can be addressed beforehand with a strengthening or stretching program. However, I'd suggest they also develop in real time as an athlete fatigues. This may look like a Crossfit athlete being able to perform 10 perfect 100kg deadlifts on assessment but during competition when they're on their 10th set of 10 100kg lifts and they're trying to perform them as quickly as possible, their form fails due to fatigue which puts them at increased risk of injury. From clinical experience many acute and non-acute injuries will have some predictive factors. If you lack full shoulder flexion, you're more likely to injure your shoulders with overhead activities such as shoulder press. An inability to control pelvic tilt should be predictive of injury as well. In my experience, weakness through gluteus medius (side butt muscles) can increase knee, back and ankle injuries and this is something that would show up during static or dynamic movements. In theory all of these things could be measurable in real time and addressed with a tailored strengthening/stretching program before they snowball into a larger problem. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with how Catapult's product works to know if they're capable of doing this?

Much of this is based on professional experience as opposed to specific scientific literature so if anyone disagrees or has an alternate viewpoint I'd love to hear it. Regardless, I hope that adds some value.


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topowl
2 years ago

I find this an interesting point, appreciate the post.

My mind wanders to the Apple Watch 6 which has a blood oxygen reader and an ecg heart sensor....

I don't know how many conversations I've now had to now sit through with doctor friends/relatives mans-plaining to me how the tech is useless (although I love checking the values due to the hypnotic dopamine releasing graphics the gui of the watch wields).

I tend to just look at actual sales as being the great truth revealer.

Although I do appreciate the concept that a lot of these devices are simply collecting data for future analytics that haven't been dreamt up yet.


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Strawman
2 years ago

Appreciate all the feedback.

The idea that the data collected wasn't useful did seem odd, but thought it was worth checking what others thought.

Glad I did!

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PortfolioPlus
2 years ago

Excellent post CA. Data for data's sake is a waste of time. Useful data is information, the value of which is wasted if not applied or misinterpreted. And I suspect there will be a proportion of Catapault clients who are in this category, but they would never blame themselves. 'It doesn't work' shifts the blame. Date nuts like former Australian cricket coach John Buchanan would love it,but would his interpretations have made a difference to Shane Warne?

I recollect a statistic from many years ago told to me on a plane trip by an owner of a large book outlet that close on 80% of people who buy books don't read them. I said you must have a terrible customer retention story and he said 'no' because purchasers justify their decision by stating that (a) they have the book and will read it sometime or (b) its there as a reference if they ever need it.

That said, data is loved by sports team owners & coaches because it gives them a chance to back up their othewise unprovable 'feelings' on performance or non-performance.

Plus, as you stated, anything that gives them an edge at the elite level where 0.1 seconds determines the Usain Bolt gold medal in the 100m and whoever came second. Who remembers his name? Or as JFK put it when receiving his methamphetamine shots from Dr Feelgood, "I don't care if its horse piss. It works'.

Diffuse points, I will agree, and maybe the answer lies in an area where, for mine, Catapault hasn't been strong. That is in getting the clients to open the box and then assist them to extract value from the products. But that could change when they fully integrate the data with the video of each players positional play during the game. I'm going to have a good look at Catapault again. I gave up on Catapault after poor management of a few years ago.

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bjbart
2 years ago

As a rule of thumb anything remotely scientific that is reported in the media should be met with a high degree of skepticism in my opinion.

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