Forum Topics PE Multiples - what is a reasonable PE Multiple
Slomo
Added a month ago

We talk a lot about multiples in investing.

I find they can often be more misleading than helpful for the best businesses.

Really just thinking on paper here, so keen to hear from others - what are some issues with or benefits you see from using Multiples?

Below is a framework I use to try and get something useful out of them or at least not get thrown by them.

Multiples are not valuations, multiples are more like pricing.

Multiples are invariably price (or market cap) over some revenue, earnings or cashflow number.

It’s a stock vs a flow. It’s like comparing a P&L number (12 months flow) to a Balance Sheet number (stock).

That said, they are widely used because they are so simple to calculate and easy to (mis)understand.

When using Multiples, here are some things I try to consider.

Firstly - All valuations are a derivative / simplification of a DCF which is the only theoretically sound methodology for estimating the intrinsic value of a cash generating asset / business.

The simplification is usually that assumptions being made are implicit, whereas in a DCF they are explicit (you need to choose the inputs you’re going to use).

DCF is also independent of share price.

Secondly – Make sure the multiple is logically constructed. For example Price to Earnings is, Price to Sales is not.

Third - Make sure the multiple being used (earnings, etc) is a valid representation of operational performance or Free Cash Flow. For example, Adjusted EBITDA can be used in a multiple but it might be more misleading than useful. That would depend on what is included in D&A, if they have a lot of debt, what’s being Adjusted, etc.

Fourth – Consider if this is a trailing or forward multiple. All the audited performance is in the past but all of your risks and opportunities are in the unknowable future. Trailing might reduce relevance, forward might reduce reliability.

Fifth – be careful what implication you take from a given multiple. If a multiple is higher for a business today than it was previously, this suggests the market outlook is better for this business. What’s your outlook?

Sixth – PE is probably the most useful (Price to FCFE too), especially when you invert it to get an earnings yield. For this to be reliable, you need to know how reliable the earnings are. They might be less reliable if aggressive or conservative accounting has been used, abnormal items have been included or excluded if they’re not so abnormal, if the business is over or under earning at present, etc.

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Lewis
Added a month ago

I love the question @Slomo.

For me the P/E ratio is super useful. I find that as I research a new company my ability to hold several ideas in my head at once maxes out pretty quickly. Once I form a view on the underlying financial performance, the management team, the product, the customers, the competition, the risks, and how expensive the share price is etc, etc, I start pushing old info out as new info comes in. especially if I don't know the company well.

P/E holds several ideas at once. It speaks to the underlying profitability of the business and also how expensive it currently is (both massive concepts in themselves). If I can see the trailing P/E, and have a view on future earnings growth potential. It's a decent way of only having to hold two ideas at once, instead of several. The key thing is (as you've alluded to) PE is only useful if you are thinking about it with a view on future growth. A PE of 50 in a company that just turned profit for the first time and is going to the moon is cheap, a PE of 10 in a company that is bleeding cash and is destined to slowly go to zero is expensive.

In summary, I love looking at PE once I've got a view on earnings growth potential. Like most shortcuts though, there are things that get lost along the way.

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Solvetheriddle
Added a month ago

@Slomo i agree with maubassin that you have to earn the right to use PEs ie they can be easily misunderstood.

pe is a derivative of ddm

Po= d1/(k-g) simple one stage dividend discount model, if we divide both sides by eps we get

PE = payout ratio/ (k-g) where k is cost of capital or required rate of retains g is growth

if you play sround with these you quickly see the sensitivity involved and how valuations move with changes to assumptions. You can go down this rabbit hole. Underlying it all is the assumption that these numbers are forecastable not make believe, if that’s the case move onto scenario analysis lol

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

Not that this matters to us as bottom up stock pickers but for those interested below are the market assumptions from Fidelity.

Profit margins are clearly seen to be reducing from the current elevate levels. Interesting that they have multiple expansion (valuation) everywhere but the US - highlighting how the US is seen as more expensive than other markets.

3f0fc2652e6ee723b4830331c740878dedf7d8.png

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

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Finally on the subject can see the recent market weakness is all multiple compression. Where yet to see a hit to earnings from any economic slowdown in the recent earnings season.

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

272a73c9b53b202cec37d82b39e384016c7712.png

Nice reminder too of what drives stock returns.

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Timocracy
Added 3 years ago

Another dimension to that would be "historical industry PE" in aiding the search for something potentially undervalued, overvalued, or on a rocket to the moon ;)

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