Forum Topics Alphabet (Google)
Mujo
Added one year ago

Googling Is for Old People. That’s a Problem for Google. - WSJ

If Google were a ship, it would be the Titanic in the hours before it struck an iceberg—riding high, supposedly unsinkable, and about to encounter a force of nature that could make its name synonymous with catastrophe.

The trends moving against Google are so numerous and interrelated that the Justice Department’s attempt to dismantle the company—the specifics of which were unveiled Nov. 20—could be the least of its problems.

The company’s core business is under siege. People are increasingly getting answers from artificial intelligence. Younger generations are using other platforms to gather information. And the quality of the results delivered by its search engine is deteriorating as the web is flooded with AI-generated content. Taken together, these forces could lead to long-term decline in Google search traffic, and the outsize profits generated from it, which prop up its parent company Alphabet’s GOOGL 1.50%increase; green up pointing triangle

 money-losing bets on things like its Waymo self-driving unit.

The first danger facing Google is clear and present: When people want to search for information or go shopping on the internet, they are shifting to Google’s competitors, and advertising dollars are following them. In 2025, eMarketer projects, Google’s share of the U.S. search-advertising market will fall below 50% for the first time since the company began tracking it.

In responding to government antitrust inquiries, Google itself makes this point often: “Evidence at trial shows we face fierce competition from a broad range of competitors.” 

This shift is due largely to users’ bypassing Google to start their search for goods on Amazon. It’s handing Amazon billions in advertiser dollars. Meanwhile, TikTok has less than 4% of U.S. digital ad revenue, but significant potential to expand its share of the pie. A recent TikTok pitch to advertisers reported on by The Wall Street Journal said that 23% of its users searched for something within 30 seconds of opening the app, and its global search volume was three billion a day.

The second threat is the rise of “answer engines” like Perplexity which, well, do what they say on the tin. OpenAI has added internet search to ChatGPT, Meta Platforms is exploring building its own search engine, and even AI chatbots that can’t search the internet are proving increasingly capable at addressing many questions. They’re also becoming ever more widespread, as Microsoft and Apple integrate them directly into the operating systems of all the devices they make or support.

“Google had this seemingly insurmountable position in search, until AI came around, and now AI is to search what e-commerce was to Walmart,” says Melissa Schilling, a professor of management at New York University’s Stern School of Business. Another comparable moment was when Microsoft missed the importance of the smartphone, and the iPhone upended its dominance of consumer computing, she adds.

Of course, Google is hard at work trying to make sure that if anyone is going to disrupt the search paradigm with AI, it’s Google itself. Earlier this year, Google rolled out AI summaries of its own search results to all users in the U.S. The company has said that such innovation is in direct response to intense competition from AI at both startups and tech giants.

The third trend that threatens Google is one the company may not be able to do much about, and that makes it the most dangerous—the degradation of the overall ecosystem of websites that Google has shaped, and on which it depends.

Much has been said about how search results are declining overall, no matter how we search the web, because of the proliferation of AI-generated content. Absent any other trends, this would by itself be a huge problem for Google. But the company’s response—eliminating the need to click on links at all by offering AI-generated summaries—could accelerate the decline of the web.

The reason is that the internet is an ecosystem, with Google as one of the primary providers of traffic—and therefore revenue. Without the traffic that Google sends across the web, the incentive and resources to continue producing websites attractive to Google’s search algorithm will decline.

Joerg Klueckmann, head of marketing at European fintech giant Finastra, worries about just that. Once more people are relying on AI to answer questions as much as early adopters like him are, traffic to websites will dry up. “And then, what do you do with your search-engine marketing team? What does that mean for all the websites we have out there?”

This process has already begun. While Google reported strong revenue growth last quarter, the rate at which people clicked on ads that appear in search results was down 8% compared with a year ago, according to data from advertising platform Skai. It’s not clear why this is happening, but one logical conclusion is that it’s the result of Google’s own AI-based summaries, which eliminate the need to click on sponsored links or scroll down to where the ads are.

One study from January by search-engine-optimization software company Authoritas found that Google’s AI answers in its search results could upend rankings and traffic to existing websites. And ad sales firm Raptive has projected that the full rollout of this change to search could erase $2 billion in revenue for publishers.

Even though the rise of AI has the potential to finally unseat Google, it’s likely to take a long time before Google’s dominance truly fades, says David Yoffie, a professor at Harvard Business School.

“We know from behavioral economics that people tend to get into certain routines, and in the absence of a spectacularly better product, people tend to stick with that,” he adds.

After the government’s recent victory in an antitrust case against Google, the Justice Department is proposing that the search giant should be prevented from giving preferential access to its search engine on devices that use its Android mobile operating system. It’s also proposing that it sell off its popular Chrome browser, among other remedies.

Kent Walker, Google’s president of global affairs, has described the Justice Department’s proposal as “wildly overbroad” and said it would “harm Americans and America’s global technology leadership.” He said Google would file its own proposed remedy to the court in December.

It will take years for the Justice Department case to be resolved, and the ultimate remedy is unlikely to be as significant as what the Justice Department has proposed. The most likely outcome is that Google negotiates some sort of consent decree with the Trump administration—just as Microsoft did with the administration of George W. Bush, says Yoffie.

As with its attempt to break up Microsoft, the government’s case against Google may be outpaced by competitive forces far more powerful than antitrust enforcement.

20

lastever
Added one year ago

This is a thought provoking article. I just opened the Perplexity ap on my iPhone for the first time in a month, and lo-and-behold there in the middle of the homepage is a link to a Cyber Monday deals page for all kinds of electronics

14

Solvetheriddle
Added one year ago

@Mujo i found the below interesting when thinking about GOOGL. i hold AMZN GOOG and MSFT, as well as a stack of others in my global etf. this guy is no GOOGL bull but he writes some interesting stuff. as you would know the issues raised in the WSJ have been around for a while.

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Google's Sum-of-Parts Analysis: Why a Breakup Shouldn't Alarm Shareholders

Rihard Jarc

Dec 1

 READ IN APP 

Hi all,

Given the pressure big tech is getting lately from antitrust regulators, I decided to share my sum-of-parts analysis on the example of Google and what shareholders could expect in the event of a Google business breakup.

Google's break-up chances

The motivation to break up Big Tech has been growing in the last few years, especially since 2021, when FTC Commissioner Lina Khan started her term. While the new upcoming administration doesn't have the same motivation for breaking Big Tech as the current one, it is still interesting to view what that would mean from a shareholder perspective.

Given that Google's case seems to be the further along I decided to focus on Google. A few days ago, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) proposed breaking up Google as a remedy for its monopolistic practices in search and advertising. Specifically, the DOJ is asking a federal judge to force Google to sell its Chrome web browser, arguing that its integration with search has solidified Google's dominance. Additionally, restrictions on Google's control of the Android operating system and its AI technologies have been proposed to prevent the company from favoring its services unfairly.

As expected, Google plans to fight this proposal. In a recent interview with an antitrust legal expert, the expert thinks that Google will likely argue on appeal that the court's decision is inconsistent, as it acknowledged that Google's dominant position in Search resulted from innovation—a factor that, under U.S. antitrust law, would make its monopoly lawful.

However, he also acknowledges that the court might look at the Microsoft 2001 case and feel that the remedy back in 2001 was insufficient for Microsoft. That might result in the possibility of selling Chrome or selling off or doing a mandatory, taking Android out of control or Android away from Google (full interview found on Alphasense).

Even if the chances of this are small, let's look at the value of Google if it were broken down into different business units:

Google's main business segments

This is a good chart showing the breakdown of Google's business units and their contribution to revenue.

source: FinChat tool (get 15% off any plan with this link)

The main units of Google and the ones which we are going to be estimating the value from are: Google Search & network, which is the largest revenue source with over 65% of total revenue; YouTube ads + subscriptions; Google other subscriptions and services (like Gmail, Chrome, Android and Google Maps), Google Cloud (GCP and Google workplace) and Other bets (from which I will focus only on the most mature two, because I think the value is the biggest there which is their AV unit Waymo and DeepMind).

Search & network

I have written thoroughly about Google and Google Search over the last few years. My last article on Google, Google: The Innovator’s Dilemma is realextensively covered my thoughts on Google Search, and my view has stayed the same since that article at the start of this year. I still believe Search is facing the classic innovator dilemma where it must cannibalize and morph into an AI Search engine. It might come out of it as the leader in AI Search, but so far, it doesn't look that way, with ChatGPT becoming a verb similar to Google. On top of that, the alternatives to Search are growing, like mushrooms, with LLMs enabling different features and new products. That doesn't mean that Google Search has no value as a standalone business.

Before I estimate its value, let's look at some new data about Search.

Google's position regarding monetizable searches in the e-commerce segment remains stable. Still, contrary to many's belief, there are other ways shoppers start their online journey, with Amazon being a strong competitor here, together with the growing trend of social and now ChatGPT (LLMs).

That said, Morgan Stanley also noted that they see younger cohorts' behavior on social media (Meta and TikTok) together with GPT more prevalently at the top of the e-commerce search funnel. If we add the fact that most younger adults in the U.S. prefer the iOS ecosystem vs the Android, Google's grip on this audience is even smaller.

Google Search still dominates advertising verticals like online travel, healthcare, autos, and finance, but I also see challenges there. One of Google's biggest clients in the travel sphere is Booking Holdings. A comment that struck me in one of their latest earnings calls was praising social media for becoming much more effective for their use case:

"we are really excited about this social media because we are now seeing that the effectiveness of social media platforms in terms of performance marketing spend has suddenly seen kind of a leapfrog change. Why? Because we see that the effectiveness of spend on those platforms suddenly leads to much higher ROIs. It has probably to do with their investments in AI and being able to target customers in a much more effective way. So we are expanding our relationship with them. And we have been working with them for many years and it was difficult to really make it effective and the returns were too low«

Also, the topic of teen usage of GenAI products from a recent teen survey is fascinating. We can see that teens are using chatbots and AI-supported search in equal matter (compared with their parents).

Also, looking at the data on what teenagers and their parents use GenAI search, it is clear that primarily nonmonetizable Google queries dominate it.

My point here is that to understand the search disruption theme, we have to look at unmonetizable queries first as they show the behavior changing and new habits start to form with it. Later, those habits will transition to monetizable search queries like shopping. At the same time, AI search and chatbot providers are just starting to roll out their shopping AI agents and shopping features (like Perplexity did 2 weeks ago with Perplexity Shopping). So, the data on how shopping intent search is changing will be more relevant a year from now than what it is today.

Nonetheless, both Google Search and Network generated $222B in revenue TTM. While network revenue was flat recently, Search continued to grow at 12% YoY in the recent quarter. Google, as a company, has a net income margin of 27.7% (TTM). Given that the GCP and some other units are not profitable or have a low-profit margin, it is a fair assumption that Search net income is at least 27.7%, if not higher. If we apply that multiple, we get a net income of $61.5B on both Search and Network.

There are two main risks to Search right now. One is the danger of being disrupted or cannibalized, as again, the consumer behavior shift first starts slow but then fast, and it can severely affect the profits. On top of that, it seems increasingly likely that Google will lose the default Safari deal with Apple. While this might not have been a problem before 2022, when I think most consumers would voluntarily choose Google to be set as a Safari default on their iPhones, now with LLM alternatives like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and others, this doesn't seem like a total slam dunk case for Google. The chances of those profits sliced in half in a not-so-distant time frame are not crazy. With that in mind, my fair value multiple for Search as an independent business now would be a 13x P/E. With that, the Search would be valued at $800B.



Before we continue with the article, I invite you to join a webinar on the topic of the future of AI in the investment and investment research industry.

The webinar will be hosted by Patrick O’Shaughnessy host of Invest Like The Best. He will have guests like Divya Narendra, the CEO of SumZero and co-founder of ConnectU (predecessor to Facebook).

Sign up to Webinar

now back to the article…



YouTube & services (Chrome, Android, Maps…)

YouTube is one of Google's biggest assets. Despite being already one of the world's most used daily digital assets, everything looks like this will remain the same in the future, with most young adults and teenagers using YouTube daily.

It generates $34.8B of ad revenue in the last 12 months. It also generates a significant portion of the $39.5B (TTM) service & subscription revenue with its ad-free tier, YouTube Premium. Given that YouTube announced at the start of this year that it had surpassed 100M subscribers globally, we can assume that the average price is somewhere around $10 (the basic price is $14, but there are discounts on Family, student, and other packages + different pricings given your geolocation). It is fair to assume that YouTube Premium brings in $12-$15B annually for Google. If we take a $13B estimate with YouTube Premium revenue and add YouTube ad revenue, we get to a total revenue (TTM) of around $48B.

If we look at peer valuation from Meta or Netflix, they trade in the 9-10x P/S ratio. But for YouTube, it is fair to assume that their net income margin is much lower because YouTube's ad revenue takes 45% of the revenue, and the remaining 55% goes to the content creators. In comparison, Meta's gross profit margin is over 80%. Netflix's margin profile seems more similar, with a 45% gross profit margin. Netflix also has a net income margin of 15-20%, which could be similar to YouTube's. If we take the midpoint, YouTube's net income would be around $8B. Meta and Netflix trade at a 27x and 50x P/E mutliple. In current market conditions, YouTube getting a 35x P/E ratio would be something expected. With that, the estimated value of YouTube as a stand-alone business would be $280B.

In this segment, we still have around $26.5B in other service revenue from Chrome, Android, Maps, and other services that Google offers. It is hard to break down these services as, in some cases, they are very dependent on each other. For example, Chrome benefits immensely from being a default browser for Android devices. Services like Maps, Chrome, and others also benefit significantly from being pre-installed on Android devices, so keeping these pieces together seems critical to maximizing value. If these were broken down into their own products with the current data that we have, it would be almost impossible to value them.

If we take them as a group, a more appropriate net income margin than that of YouTube is, in my view, that of Search, as these products have fewer costs associated with their usage than YouTube. If a 25% net income margin is applied to this segment, we reach around $6.6B in profits. Given that the growth rate of this segment is in the 10-20% range and that inside of the whole segment that was reported, YouTube Premium was the highest grower, my estimate for the growth of these services (ex YT Premium) is more in the 10% range. This is in line with app revenue data saying that mobile ad spending in 2023 grew 7.7% YoY, which is where Android makes most of its cash. Given current conditions, applying a 20x P/E ratio on a 10% YoY grower seems reasonable. According to that, the estimated value of this segment is $132B.



Upgrade to paid



Google Cloud

I already wrote about the cloud space in great detail in my previous articles, so the thing that I want to go over here is the latest data that we have:

source: FinChat tool (get 15% off any plan with this link)

The first thing we have to note is that when we talk about »pure cloud« revenue, the only pure data point is the one from Amazon's AWS, where they report AWS revenue. In their cloud revenue figures, Google and Microsoft include other cloud services, like Google Workspace, making direct comparisons less straightforward.

Looking at Google Cloud as a whole segment, it is now at over $40B in TTM revenue. It has also accelerated recently, as all cloud providers have because of new AI workloads. Google Cloud reported revenue growth of 35% YoY in the last quarter.

source: FinChat tool (get 15% off any plan with this link)

We can see that the 2022-2023 period, when clients were optimizing their cloud spending, has passed, and growth is reaccelerating while at a much bigger revenue run rate.

What is also important is that, as I mentioned in my articles quite often, the fight between the cloud providers has now shifted to providing LLM models and cost-effective chip infrastructure as the market is shifting from training to inference AI workloads. Within this topic, an integral piece for the cloud providers is their custom ASICs. Google has a significant advantage regarding its TPUs, which are already in the 6th generation. As a Former Google Unit Head stated on the AlphaSense platform, TPUs are approximately 66% or less expensive to operate compared to GPUs for the latest generation, with previous generations being around 40-45% lower in cost.

Both Amazon and especially Microsoft need to catch up when it comes to their custom chip development. TPUs are something that Google is already using heavily internally for their LLMs and other AI workloads, but now they are beginning to offer services run on TPUs and even TPUs to outside clients. Apple Intelligence is supposed to be trained on TPUs.

With the fact that Google Cloud is currently the fastest growing out of both Azure and AWS and the fact that they have the best and most mature custom ASIC offering, they, in my view, deserve a slight premium compared to AWS and Azure and would get that if they were an independent company. The multiple that a Google Cloud would get in today's market is around 15x P/S, if not higher. If we apply the multiple to the $40.5B revenue run rate, we get to a Google Cloud value of $607B.

Other bets

The two other business segments I want to include here are Google's AI DeepMind unit, which recently merged with Google's Brain business unit, and Waymo.

For DeepMind, I wanted to separate this unit and include it because, as I said in this article, I believe Google will have to cannibalize its Search unit over the coming years, and DeepMind, with its LLMs products, will take over. In assigning value to Google's DeepMind unit as a separate entity, I would again look at their peers. The two peers that matter are OpenAI and Anthropic. OpenAI just recently completed its new investment round valued at $157B. Rumors have it that Anthropic has floated a $40B valuation (details of Amazon's recent $4B investment have yet to be disclosed). Trying to value this unit as a separate unit is hard as a lot of the value derives from DeepMind having access to GCP, cheap TPUs, and the vast Google array of data. To try to nail down the estimate of it, we can look at the recent market share estimates for LLMs from Menlo Ventures:

Based on these estimates, Google DeepMind LLMs now have a 12% market share, up from 7% last year but still smaller compared to 24% for Anthropic and 34% for OpenAI. Based on this, the unit's estimates should be closer to Anthropic's valuation than OpenAI's. With that in mind, my current DeepMind value estimate is $40B.

Another business segment I wanted to add to the conversation is Google's autonomous vehicle unit, Waymo. The math is easy here, as Waymo raised outside money at a $45B valuation last month. Given that Google now owns about 90% of it, the value assigned here is $40B.

Summary

To wrap it up, my projections for Google's business, if broken down into individual segments, are as follows:

  • Search & network: $800B
  • YouTube: $280B
  • Other services (Chrome, Android, Maps, etc.): $132B
  • Google Cloud: $607B
  • DeepMind: $40B
  • Waymo: $40B
  • Net Cash: $41.5B

Total: $1940.5B

The estimated valuation of $1.94 T is close to Google's current market cap of $2.08 T.

Interestingly enough, Barron's put out their own Sum-of-parts analysis for Google just a few days ago:

Based on these numbers, they estimate the valuation of Search at $1700B, YouTube at $764B, Cloud at $300B, and Waymo at $300B for a total of $3T.

As I read through their estimates to me, it shows that they do not expect Search to be disrupted (that is why they assigned a much bigger multiple to it - 2x my multiple); when it comes to YouTube, my guess is they probably included Other services like Chrome, Android, Maps, etc. in that pie. They valued Google Cloud much lower than what I have, and they also valued Waymo the same as Google Cloud with a $300B market value, which I think is way off since Waymo just recently raised outside funds at a $40B valuation (nowhere close to $300B). Even if you add a control share premium, the gap to $300B is huge.

In general the chances of a Google breakup are still very low as the administration is changing. So far, President Trump has commented that he doesn't want to break up Google, as he believes it would weaken U.S. companies competing on the global stage.

At the same time, my sum-of-parts analysis also showed that even if that happened, Google shareholders wouldn't get much less value than they have today. Of course, again, these are my estimates based on my assumptions and the risks that I am seeing. The more significant focus when it comes to Google and its investor base shouldn't be on the risk of breaking the company up but rather on their fight in their primary business unit, Search, and how well Google can position itself in the new AI Search era. With LLMs and AI, the market has opened in a way that not only are smaller companies competing with Big Tech, but also Big Tech is competing with each other in almost every field they are in, and to me, not everyone will come out as a winner.

As always, I hope you found this article valuable, and I kindly invite you to become a paid subscriber as this week I am publishing a deep dive piece into the Small modular reactor (SMR) industry and, with it, Sam Altman's SMR investment in the company Oklo. Since I just launched this service, I decided to give a special offer to my early subscribers. Subscribers who sign up for the plan until the end of this year will get a 20% discount on their subscription forever.

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Disclaimer:

I own Amazon (AMZN) and Meta (META) stock.

16

Dominator
Added one year ago

I own Google as my largest individual company holding, my highest conviction position as well.

I still hold conviction in search as I think it has some type of advantage in terms of the fact it is provided to the customer for free and companies pay Google to provide the content to the customers. LLM type products will inevitably implement this I guess but Google provides a hybrid product in my view. An answer tool when you need it (which isn't really revenue generating anyways) and internet search for content you want. I downloaded Perplexity this week, while it seems like a great tool it doesn't operate like a search in an internet browser which I am accustomed too. Maybe it is just the way I use the net but couldn't see myself using it even for free as my go to internet tool... Let along paying $30 US a month for the privilege. Again, emphasizing Google's advantage here is customers don't pay and for free get the highest standard in internet search. Google also has a cost advantage in AI by being able to use their own chips (just look at NVIDA margins!).

I wonder if the hype around LLM killing Google is based on very tech savvy people using the tools to the best of their ability not realizing how hard it is for the average person to gain value out of the LLMs currently. I would happily put my hand up as a tech nerd and have much better than average computer skills but cannot find any real use case for LLM in my day-to-day life, or at least not in a way that it meaningfully removes Google search (at least for searches that Google can actually profit from ie non-answers searches). Free use LLMs are enough for the odd case when I think there is something they can help me with.

I would be interested to hear how others have implemented AI/LLM search into their general internet usage and if you are finding value for money as compared to the free Google search/tools available?

18

Mujo
Added one year ago

Thanks @Solvetheriddle i don’t think a break up would be bad for alphabet at all and might actually improve capital allocation and market valuation - SOTP. I’d be rooting for a breakup - it didn’t hurt standard oil even.

That said Google Search i think does faces quite a few tailwinds and is the cash box. LLM are overrated currently but that will change. Google needs to get a serious wiggle on - it will be slow death as a lot are used to current search but the next generation will be more familiar with LLM - and ChatGPT is the current ‘verb’ amongst the public which Google needs to change. I think it would be slow death as my generation and older all will use search but you start losing advertisers and less people using it makes search results worse.As even the marginal search moves to ChatGPT, ClaudeAI or perplexity and Amazon then advertising revenue incrementally moves a and it’s the high margin revenue. So ‘innovators dilemma’ at google as they need to disrupt its current business.

@Dominator i think LLM usefulness depends on your work role. It is a great as a summary tool which is great for research - imagine kids will love it for assignments etc. I don’t use it a lot but i am paranoid that i might not be an early adopter anymore. I don’t think it’s spread to household use as much but imagine it will be useful for Siri, Google Home and Alexa etc.

15

Slew
Added one year ago

@Dominator here’s an example of perplexity replacing google in my day to day life

I'm hoping to do a ski trip to Japan sometime in February to early March. I asked Perplexity about the best airfares with some specific requirements. My criteria included flexibility on dates, a trip duration of about two weeks, flights under a certain travel time, luggage requirements, preferred airlines and route.

Perplexity's response:

  • Suggested a three-week period with cheaper flights.
  • Recommended departing on a Tuesday for 30% cheaper fares.
  • Advised booking 37 days before departure for optimal pricing. (let’s see if that is correct! very specific)
  • Provided a range of prices for different dates.
  • Included options for luggage allowances.
  • Even suggested extending my trip by two days could further reduce costs.

I cross-checked this information on booking platforms, and it was accurate.  The time it took me to write this is probably longer than it took to get all that information! Getting the above information via google would have taken me a long time and much back and forth with changing dates etc on booking platforms, which is exactly what I would have done in the past.

I've installed the app on my iPhone and find myself using it for quick searches instead of Google. Has it completely replaced Google, no, but it's becoming my first port of call.

I don’t consider myself tech-savvy, but I am prepared to have a go at new things. I’m in my mid 50’s and most people I know have shown no interest in AI platforms, I’m not sure they would even be aware of the variety of platforms out there past chatgpt. This feels to me like something where adoption is slow, but at some point will accelerate.

So, I just did a very sophisticated 1 person survey on my mid 50 partner

Do you know what a LLM is? “No”

Do you know what Chatgpt is? “It’s some AI thing isnt it?”

Do you know any other platforms like Chat gpt? “No”

And yep, I used perplexity to fix the spelling on this before posting as I am lazy and my typing sucks.

23

Solvetheriddle
Added one year ago

@Dominator interesting i just suggested to SM to do a group meeting on using AI in investment research. i think there is alot of interest in it.

re GOOGL, it use to be my largest holding when it was sold off theGoogles dead thesis. as you say the thing missing in that theis was that the use cases in LLm,s were not monetizable merchants based searches, they were research based searches (no rev). so not great but, importantly it gave GOOG time to respond. secondly, GOOG weren't in the AI is crap camp, far from it, they have the know-how to put up a good fight. how that fight works out is the issue, my base case is that in the future Google will not dominate (excuse the pun) the landscape as in the past. it will be a long process but fragmenting data is not great. So Googl is around my 10th largest holding now. AI is an extremely dynamic space, that leaves me uneasy because the winners and losers can quickly (ie a few years) change and you have to be watchful. re AI apps so far, you are right the use cases are lagging, but the ecosystem is not optimised for their use yet. B2B is making large progress, in consumer the killer app is yet to be developed, maybe it could be Google, could also be many others.

12

Slomo
Added one year ago

+1 for a @Strawman group meeting on using AI in investment research!

I have played around with a few different AI model for investing but now looking to embed it as part of my process so keen to round table this with the Strawman intelligentsia.

14

Dominator
Added one year ago

Thanks all for the use case examples. My job doesn't require any type of research or writing, the most I use a Windows based computer for is admin type email and to look at my roster. @Strawman I also would be very interested in a Strawman meeting regarding the use of AI tools.

I like to keep core investment KPIs to monitor the progress of the companies I hold. As a result of all of your feedback on Google, I'm going to add Google search revenue as a particular KPI, should be a good indictor when the growth slows significantly that something may be happening... However, at the moment doesn't look to be the case based on data from TIKR:

8f1742768cf8d0cb98dd346d42904099b61d90.png

@Slewout of interest I tried to mimic your search in Google's Gemini and Perplexity, Gemini's answers regarding the flights wont as smart/comprehensive as Perplexity but Google was able to point straight to Google flights and gave a reasonable answer. Note, both models used were the free versions. Probably, a good example of how it is easier for Google to monetise and lower the compute cost of that search as it already has the existing back end and scale to do so, however, the end result may not be as good.

I think is all comes down to how Google changes the search bar to integrate AI. If Google search can effectively implement Gemini as the search function and if it functions near as good as AI models such as ChatGPT and Perplexity then they will have a strong chance of fighting the competition. Seamless implementation will be key....

Luckily for Google whatever happens they have other great core businesses that are likely to continue to grow (Cloud and Youtube). I know... I sound like a bit of a fan boy...

10

SudMav
Added one year ago

I would also be keen to see how others use AI for investing at the moment.

The call with Mikebrisy last week very much peaked my interest

10

Slew
Added one year ago

@Dominator I was using the paid version of Perplexity, perhaps that made a difference?

Out of interest, I just did a side-by-side comparison with Google. Using the same search criteria, Google's generative AI summary at the top came up with a response similar to my post, however, Perplexity's response was more detailed, including actual flight information, costs, times, etc.

Where Perplexity wins, in my opinion, is its conversational approach to search. It was much easier to refine search criteria such as asking it to remove flights with more than two stops, etc.

I could have kept refining my Google search to get the same information, but I just found Perplexity easier and quicker to get to the end point.

I agree with @Hackofalltrades I've surprisingly, very quickly adapted my search behaviour, switching between Google and other options depending on the nature of the search.

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Solvetheriddle
Added one year ago

@Mujo i forgot to add these interesting charts. people can draw their own conclusions, id say drum in the distance for GOOG, AMZN is making big progress due to piggybacking off its huge retail data.


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Mujo
Added one year ago

Interesting thanks @Solvetheriddle.

I'm always surprised at amazon as it just retail but I guess most people go online to shop. Just finished The Everything War: Amazon's Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power : Mattioli, Dana: Amazon.com.au: Books clearly quite critical but shows what a force amazon is.

I think the model may change for these searches for school/uni/office to a paid model like copilot. Microsoft's distribution advantage may have Google over a barrel there given their grip over business with the microsoft office suite.

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Mujo
Added 10 months ago

Argument re search I always though doesn't get much attention - The inevitable death of Google - by Ben Buchanan - 01Core

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Solvetheriddle
Added 10 months ago

@Mujo , I tend to agree but am worried about the path to monetisation over the ST/MT on the big capex, especially for GOOG vs. MSFT, for example. Aligned to this is that the D&A will rise soon. GOOG may be vulnerable until revenues pick up. Having said that, the last result was very good, and the management knows the D&A increase is coming; there is some fat in GOOG. undercharging for D&A could be 3 pts of PE, in my estimation.

The chart below shows that search has had competition for ages; LLM will be another pillar in time.

I cant forgive them for letting Chat GPT steal the initiative and become the "name" for LLMs when that should have been a Google product. they were too conservative on hallucinating--maybe.

what that means is GOOG was my largest holding now outside the top 10. still held,

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AAPL asleep, waiting to put "whatever works" on the iphone. :/

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Mujo
Added 10 months ago

I actually think ChatGPT has not become the verb at all for LLM. Everyone I speak too has a different favourite and I very much think the game is still on. That said Microsoft has the distribution advantage in business which I think will win the business vertical.

I also don't like the data centers - historically the infrastructure doesn't get the best economics i.e. computers v software. It's capital intensive and just seems like a bad place to be for RoC.

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Solvetheriddle
Added 3 years ago

this is a balanced view of AI MSFT/GOOG etc for any one that is interested. its about 50min but the first 30 minutes are relevant.

i must say that it does not take much for frenzied panic to take hold........i shouldnt be surprised, should i :)


https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ai-revolution-with-silicon-valley-veteran/id1653747327?i=1000600010554

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

A good article on what is occurring in the Microsoft Bing v Alphabet Google battle: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end? | The Economist

Some key quotes:

"Brian Nowak of Morgan Stanley, a bank, estimates that serving up an answer to a Chatgpt query costs roughly two cents, about seven times more than a Google search, because of the extra computing power required. He reckons that every 10% of Google searches that shift to an ai-powered application by 2025 will, depending on the number of words in an average response, add between $700m and $11.6bn, to Google’s operating costs, equivalent to between 1% and 14% of such spending in 2022."

"To complicate matters further, many costly conversational-search queries will generate little or no ad revenue. Google has said that 80% of its search results do not contain lucrative ads at the top of the search results. Many of these ad-light searches are almost certainly “informational” (“what is the capital of Spain?”), precisely the sort of query where chatbots are most useful—and precisely the sort that advertisers are least interested in (it is hard to know what ad to place next to the word “Madrid”). For generative ai to make real money, it will need to find uses in “navigational” searches (looking for a site’s internet address by its name) and especially “commercial” ones (“Best new ski boots this season”)."

"Google’s other advantage is incumbency. It is the default search engine in Chrome, Alphabet’s browser, which is used by two in three people on the internet, according to StatCounter, a research firm. It is also the go-to search on more than 95% of smartphones in America. The firm also pays Apple roughly $15bn a year to make its search the default on Apple’s devices, such as iPhones, and Safari browser, which accounts for 19% of browsers installed on desktops."

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

Quick follow up, Ben Evans covers a lot of the digital advertising industry in his 2023 presentation (and other tech trends) - Presentations — Benedict Evans (ben-evans.com)

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

Further to this looks like Bing isn't any better either yet despite the hype - Bing AI Can't Be Trusted - by Dmitri Brereton - DKB Blog

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

I agree i think margins come down slightly but i think google will remain a near monopoly. Microsoft played the latest marketing round very well. If Google gets a better control of costs than they have in the past they can easily do well from here. Ex cash and excess costs i would think Alphabet is not trading that far off 12x earnings - though not sure how advertising revenue does short term now they are almost the market and we see more of a snapback from elevated online spend short term. Long term in any case i think it’s attractive.

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Solvetheriddle
Added 3 years ago

If you guys are keen there are MANY articles on seeeking alpha on this topic, they range from the end of the world for GOOG, to chatbots will have little impact, strong views at both ends of the argument, lol. you have to hand it to Nadella, MSFT came out with an average result and all everyone is talking about is MSFT AI potential--he is smart. as for GOOG, they are leaders in AI, but actually incorporating and using this technology in a profitable way in the search engine, is the tricky part.

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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

Thanks @Solvetheriddle I just subscribed for Premium yesterday so will have to have a look.

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lyndonator
Added 3 years ago

I have been thinking a lot about this lately and there are is a lot to consider in the Google vs ChatGPT debate.


The most obvious for me is: "Is ChatGPT (note I'm using ChatGPT as a synonym for any chatbot/ language model) actually a replacement for search?"

Now, I do think ChatGPT is revolutionary and that it, and models like it, will drastically change our lives in the coming years - doing it in ways we can't yet imagine. I also think there are elements of search that ChatGPT will do much better than Google currently does - but I'm not sure it will do the "I'm looking for the best company that sells this thing I want to buy" kind of search better, AND those searches are the ones that make Google the money.

Google have done a lot of work to make sure the quality of websites it recommends is good (or as good as it can be). Why would a language model repeat this work when, if the request of it meant it needed to return a website, it could just use google itself and maybe get a kick back from any advertising revenue (see more on this below)?


"OpenAI (via ChatGPT) have caught Google with their pants down and it is all over for Google coz they can't compete"

OpenAI have done it first, but they have no proprietary data or major IP advantage (that I know of - feel free to tell me I'm wrong here). I believe they are just the first and now they have shown that it can be done (and how stupidly excited the world got about it) it will be replicated by others. And like all things, the more it is done, the cost of doing it will get cheaper. Google already have done a lot on language AI - hence them coming out with bard (albeit quite unsuccessfully) so quickly - I think the reason they hadn't release their own ChatGPT, at least in part, is they didn't see how it would make them money. Which leads to...


"There is not yet a business model for ChatGPT" (Again, someone please jump in and tell me I'm wrong here)

The popularity of ChatGPT has just turned it into a money pit and Microsoft had to come in to bail out OpenAI. To me it is not an application itself, but a feature (an absolutely AMAZING feature) of another application. I think this means we are now in a race to see who can most successfully integrate language models into their applications. Side note: I think the first company to, successfully, turn something like ChatGPT into a digital personal assistant will kill it. Add to this that it relies on scraping data from websites that are built with the expectation of people actually visiting - it's gotta be careful it does not cannibalise it's own source of data and make sure money still flows to those that have provided the data it uses.


I own a small amount of Google which I'm holding for now. And if it drops to $80 I'll definitely buy a bit more. I'm definitely keen to see how this whole space shakes out




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Mujo
Added 3 years ago

Great read on the history and opportunity of Alphabet - Investor+Letter+2022+ENG.pdf

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