Forum Topics What did you learn from your biggest investing losses
shadow
2 years ago

Key person risk is a thing: MFG

Yes, a charismatic founder can be wonderful for a stock price, but ultimately the value of that single person is intangible. And once that person leaves, you're left with empty air.


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Timocracy
2 years ago

When you get a balloon, the latex is firm but flexible. It will expand to a point and can continue to hold air, pop, slowly deflate or be let go of before being tied up and it shoots across the room. When you grab that previously inflated balloon, it resembles more of a shrivelled, cold scrotum. Ie, it will never be the same even if it gets more air into it.

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Rudyboy
2 years ago

Over the years I have made the Only Fools and Horses Del-boy statement "this time next year I'm going to be a millionaire" only to see my dreams evaporate.

One thing I would suggest is you can only love or not love a stock. My own view point is while I am in love it's a buy and hold, when it gets a bit on the nose and doubt creeps in, I like to sell (doesn't always work). When you sell, find another you love... but just because you have money burning a hole in your pocket doesn't mean you have to spend it that day.

But I do like to keep a pretty big number of stocks, usually about 20ish. So hopefully I then split the risk and don't lose 100k on one stock. I generally buy $5k in something I am not too sure about, $10k for most buys and up to $50k on something I have a strong belief in, but watch like a hawk. That way if a $5k stake goes to $1k, I have only lost $4k, which in the big scheme of things means I will only sulk for about one day before getting over it.

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Rudyboy
2 years ago

No problem, just post your bank details, passport number, driving licence number, home address, bank balance and medicare number here LOL.....my Russian mate will be in contact

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Macca571
2 years ago

Thankyou @Bear77 for sharing. Wise words, extremely informative and extensive insights. A written Investment Thesis (IT) is something that I have not particularly paid a lot of attention to, and is probably a weakness in my investment strategy. It has made me re-evaluate what I am doing and will hopefully make me a better investor, because in the past I have held on to my losses far too long in the hope of them coming good, which invariably they rarely do. I always believed that if I sold these, then I'd just be "locking in my losses" I really like your analogy of "changing horses mid-race"!!!

Thanking you again. I really appreciate your advice, wisdom and the time you invest. I also suspect so many others on this platform share the same sentiment.

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Bear77
2 years ago

Thanks @Macca571 - I borrowed heavily from others of course. None of that stuff is original. It's all been said before by somebody somewhere. For instance, the changing horses mid-race thing (lesson #3) was from Andrew (@Strawman) Page, and also the "don't get in the way of compounding" bit in #10 is from Andrew (yesterday). Lesson 4 is just a rewording of a quote from George Soros. Lesson 5 is from Geoff Wilson (of WAM Funds), something he shared with everyone at his WAM Funds Roadshows a few years back. They looked back at their success rate over a period of time and discovered they were only getting about 40% of their initial calls right, but were still outperforming their benchmark by letting their winners run and cutting their losses early.

Geoff's crew at WAM Funds also had (and still have) an additional rule, which was that they only invest in a company when they could identify a potential positive catalyst that should cause the market to positively re-rate the stock (and drive the share price up). No catalyst, no buy. Once the catalyst occurs, if no further positive catalysts have been identified, sell. A quick example would be investing in an engineering and construction (E&C) contractor like Monadelphous Group (MND) back when they were tendering for all three of the big new iron ore mines that BHP, RIO and FMG were building a couple of years ago (South Flank, Gudai-Darri [formerly known as Koodaideri] and Eliwana) and the potential positive catalyst was that MND would win one or more of the main E&C contracts for the processing plants and associated infrastructure - due to their previous positive working history with the 3 miners, particularly RIO and BHP, their industry position, reputation, capabilities, and track record. Each of those main contracts was worth hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, so they were a big deal for whoever won them. MND were indeed awarded a number of those contracts, both large and medium-sized, along with a small handful of other contractors, and their share price did rise on the news of those contract wins. I was holding MND at the time myself, but I didn't need WAM Funds to point me in that direction. I'd been on MND longer than they had. Point being, that you can add that as a rule also if you want - the catalyst thing. Basically it means you should have a good reason why the share price of the company you are buying should increase and you can explain it to somebody if required, and you know the basic timeframe that this should occur in. These catalysts don't always play out as we expect, but the idea of trying to identify positive catalysts that may occur in the future is still a useful exercise that may improve your win rate.

Another way of framing that one is that we all sometimes believe that a company we hold (or are looking to buy) is seriously undervalued by the market, but the real question we should be asking is: What is going to make the market come around to OUR way of thinking? As John Maynard Keynes - or Gary Shilling - said many years ago: "Markets can stay irrational longer than you and I can stay solvent." So it's good to have a general idea of what is going to change the market's mind.

But yeah, those 14 lessons (or basic rules) that I listed last night are ones that have resonated with me, and are from all over the place. None of them were made up by me. They are just things that I've learned to do, or wisdom I now try to adhere to. Great if it helps people think about things a little differently.

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Bear77
2 years ago

I've just made a few edits to those 14 lessons (or my 14 rules) in this thread, to make them easier to read, and/or to understand. A little more detail, and the main lessons are now in bold type. No major changes, just a little more colour really. If you're reading this in the newsfeed on the homepage you can click here and scroll down - you'll find it.

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PortfolioPlus
2 years ago

Timbercorp was a forestry company wrapped around tax deductible products for wealthy taxpayers. It offered incredible discounts to NTA and Steve Johnson of Forage and formerly of the newsletter The Investment Advisor was in love with it and it’s future potential. That’s what got be interested. So, strike one - always back yourself and fully appreciate that the ultimate and only responsibility rests with you when it comes to investments.

But the biggest lesson I learnt from Timbercorp (and there have been others) is FOLLOW THE CASH. If there is a big disparity between NPAT and OPERATING CASH adjusted for non cash items - BEWARE.

These days inventive accountants can come up with any number of smoke & mirror tricks to pump up the profitability - but disguising actual cash banked is a harder proposition.

Investors in tech stocks should look at the amount of expenditure capitalised, rather than expensed. Not all assets on the Balance Sheet will recover dollar for dollar. Ditto for mining services companies and professional companies like solicitors and accountants where a build up in ‘work in progress’ can be a puffed up asset not fully recoverable.

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@PortfolioPlus thats right use that cashflow statement. as an old cfo of brambles told me it is the only useful thing the accountants had created. the predecessor was useless. beware shifting cashflows between CFI and CFO to amke CFO look better, is the main dodgy caper i have coem across

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